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#191734 - 10/16/07 11:23 AM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
Ken Offline
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Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 431
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
"David Boring is a "crime novel" - an "adventure novel" - a "detective fiction" - "

So maybe it's an example of a soft-genre, if you got my point about that. Did you?
I see what you are saying, I just am not in favor of more "binaries" and don't feel that they capture what is going on.

And I think, as we have talked about before, that DB shares so much in common with other adventure novels and crime novels that I don't think we need to call it hard or soft anything . . . .

For me, genre categories are fairly loose, and one term like "adventure" can accomodate stories that only have a few key traits in common.
I think the difference in our approaches here is that when you say the categories are loose, you're talking about their "in essentia" parameters. I was trying to answer your questions historically, as to why some uses of genre become not-so-loose.
I am not sure what "in essentia " means . . .
But I'll take a guess and say --
I don't think genres have an essence;
you can write a detective fiction with out an actual detective - a "lay person could be playing that role - maybe for the first and last time - in a way that's close enough. Etc . . .

Same goes for a superhero story; a mini series might feature the cast of characters associated with the hero, but she/he might never appear.

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#191735 - 10/16/07 02:48 PM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
gene phillips Offline
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Registered: 09/30/99
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#191736 - 10/16/07 02:51 PM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
gene phillips Offline
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Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Reece:
"So one mild fun-poking at some other elitist makes her Leslie Fiedler, friend to the tradition of the popular novel?"

It makes her a defender of genre and you clearly wrong.
I don't suppose you've read any of her nonfiction collections? LANGUAGE OF THE NIGHT maybe?

If not, read it and get back to me. If so, reread it and get back to me.

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#191737 - 10/17/07 12:08 AM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
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Loc: us of fuckin' a
The link above is evidence enough that you're wrong.
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The Gospel, wherein much Truth is written.

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#191738 - 10/17/07 09:55 AM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
gene phillips Offline
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Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Reece:
The link above is evidence enough that you're wrong.
Ursula LeGuin is a defender of genre the way Al Capp's a flaming liberal (with reference to the issue of changing beliefs over time, dontcha know).

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#191739 - 10/17/07 10:33 AM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
Charles Reece Offline
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Loc: us of fuckin' a
You think Capp now comes across as a flaming liberal? Your elitism charge probably stems from LeGuin suggesting better SF has been written since AMAZING STORIES.
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#191740 - 10/17/07 12:08 PM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
Ken Offline
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Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 431
I bet that people whose ideas about detective fiction are stuck at 1920 might not agree with me. Those who have read broadly in DF since the 60s might agree with me.

If someone said "DB varies from the model of classic DF ala Poe and Doyle" I would say "sure, no doubt."

But it also has an actual private detective in it, as well as some cops who are detectives - all of whom investigate crimes, missing persons cases, etc . . . and it shares other traits, too

"the boundaries should be loose"
Should or shouldn't has nothing to do with it.
Boundaries often are loose.

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#191741 - 10/17/07 02:37 PM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Reece:
You think Capp now comes across as a flaming liberal? Your elitism charge probably stems from LeGuin suggesting better SF has been written since AMAZING STORIES.
I know that Al Capp was more liberal in his youth than when he was bashing hippies in the 60s. That's the point, Reece: even if LeGuin were a "friend to the popular" now-- which I find pretty unlikely on the basis of one mild essay-- she certainly was not anything but an elitist in the pages of LANGUAGE OF THE NIGHT.

Don't believe me? Go read it. Oh, I forgot. You know things w/o reading them.

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#191742 - 10/17/07 02:46 PM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
"Do you agree or disagree with the statement that some individual fans of a given genre all but demand to see certain elements emphasized in their genre of choice, and will take umbrage if, say, they are told that DAVID BORING is a mystery story and there is nothing in it that corresponds to their expectation?

Their objections would not be wrong, because in many respects DAVID BORING is not a mystery story, according to the way the buyers of mystery stories perceive them. You are perceiving certain tropes that DB has in common with other mystery stories, but that doesn't mean hardcore mystery fans would validate those tropes above others that they think essential, like the Charlie Chan "you are murderer" scene.

OK, looking back, you said "detective story," so mentally plug that in wherever I wrote "mystery."

Assuming you agree that such readers exist-- and I don't see how you could disagree-- then your definition of a given genre's looseness hinges on your opinion that the boundaries should be loose, and not as well-defined as the hardcore detective-fiction fan might insist. Your opinion is not necessarily wrong, and neither is his. Considered in essentia, genres mutate and hybridize all the time. Historically, though, an apparent consistency of common elements is what makes it possible to consider genre apart from the wider span of fiction."

I bet that people whose ideas about detective fiction are stuck at 1920 might not agree with me. Those who have read broadly in DF since the 60s might agree with me.

If someone said "DB varies from the model of classic DF ala Poe and Doyle" I would say "sure, no doubt."

But it also has an actual private detective in it, as well as some cops who are detectives - all of whom investigate crimes, missing persons cases, etc . . . and it shares other traits, too

"the boundaries should be loose"
Should or shouldn't has nothing to do with it.
Boundaries often are loose.
No, boundaries in literature are exactly as tight or loose as they are perceived by observers.

Over time one can get a sense that genre-boundaries are loose because then one can see how much one set of generic expectations changes into another.

The idea of "hard genre," of giving a set of readers a dependable set of generic expectations, is not functional according to what era one happens to read the genre. It comes out of a producer's perception that a set of readers will buy a set of books based on the fulfillment of expectations, and that attempt to direct tastes in this way is one reason why genre fiction is often separated from so-called literary fiction-- which is what you originally asked about, I believe.

Even now, I have no idea whether or not you admit that this marketing procedure even takes place, since you've said so little about it.

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#191743 - 10/17/07 02:56 PM Re: Debate About State of "Art-Comics" (Particularly Clowes), But w/o Superhero Nuts
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Gene, fact is, I provided you with a fact against your claim. All you've provided me is your word that you've detected elitism somewhere. Given the way you throw the term at anything that doesn't agree with your purist notion of what genre should be, I don't see much of a point in even trusting your interpretation enough to go and test it once again, just to make sure it is indeed incorrect. That's your responsibility to prove otherwise once a clear contradiction to your case has been shown. Not mine.
_________________________
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