Kim --
Your reasons for not going into distribution sound eminently sensible.

But since the same reasons would be equally eminently sensible for most other parties that might consider going into distribution, how does this jibe with your earlier statement that "If Diamond refuses to distribute enough potentially salable comics, another distributor will take up the slack eventually"?

Diamond has had its monopoly for quite some time now, and people have been saying that since the beginning. We know (from Justin Savage, e.g., who reports greater success with some they refused than with some they carried) that potentially salable comics are not being carried by Diamond. Where is this new distributor?

I don't want to get back into politics, but I can't resist a side observation on the irony of you expressing such faith in the Market to correct itself, and me doubting it.

Quack, Don


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GRAPHIC NOVEL REVIEW FOR LIBRARIES
P.O. Box 55148
Phoenix, AZ 85078

A few thoughts on the phrase "potentially-saleable" ....

What is in fact saleable really depends upon: (1) who is walking into the comics store and (2) what the person behind the counter is doing to sell the comics. To me, "potentially-saleable" means "when the right people are walking into the store and the person behind the counter uses suggestive selling, the copies will be sold and the customers will be glad they made their purchases."

While I clearly have problems with the presentation in PREVIEWS, the exclusives, and inequitable discounting, one of my biggest concerns is that the publishers and the retailers often seem to be two separate
communities that don't like each other and don't trust each other. (Read all the recent discussion surrounding retailer Preston Sweet in THE COMICS RETAILER if you don't believe me.)

One or more communities of retailers and creators UNITED saying to the world loud & clear "WE WANT TO SUPPORT EVAN DORKIN & CHRIS WARE (or Drew Hayes or James Kochalka or Cathy Guisewite or somebody) BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD AND YOU WILL LOVE THEM!" is what it clearly what it takes to make this work.

While I've got some problems with selling PREVIEWS listings .... here's a thought ...
an issue of PRISONOPOLIS was made available to retailers through Diamond's SMALL PRESS SAMPLER program. Through it, around 500 retailers got one copy with a very steep discount. I would have happily paid $200 to get some FEEDBACK as to just why it apparently was not saleable (since they didn't call in reorders and didn't seem to want subsequent issues).

One former retailer I talked to (Robert Beerbohm, who has written some great essays for The Comics Journal) said some very nice things about PRISONOPOLIS and compared it to THE LEGION OF CHARLIES by Tom Veitch & Greg Irons. I really wish I received more communication from retailers like this.

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Ben Adams
Read PRISONOPOLIS and discuss MURDER BY CROWQUILL online at www.mediawarpcomics.com .







[This message has been edited by Ben Adams (edited 07-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by Ben Adams (edited 07-03-99).]

This is not entirely a propos but I thought you might find it interesting.

It is called -- what is wrong with the Diamond market.

Sony's Metreon's MOEBIUS SHOP (which also thanks to us sell CONCRETE, HELLBOY, Darrow, NBM graphic novels & other creators likely to appeal to a more mature market) initially ordered 100 copies of the AIRTIGHT GARAGE (Epic #3) graphic novel, which retails at $12.95.

The store opened on June 17. On June 30, they reordered 240 copies.

And we're talking about a rather artsy book with great art but a non-linar storyline, ie: not that mainstream, let's face it.

So, what we have here is a creator (us), a mainstream-looking store with lots of foot traffic in a mainstream location (downtown San Francisco), and the public -- probably a teenage / young adult / 20s crowd since the arcade games are the draw.

We have no distributors or retailers making judgment on what sells and doesn't sell, no superhero junk cluttering the shelves, nothing to turn away adults, women, clean-shaven people, etc.

What we have is a real world situation: I have a product to sell, there are people who want to buy it.

And in that real world situation, we moved 100 books in 2 weeks. By comparison, a *good* comic store like GOLDEN APPLE or HI-DE-HO will move 12 in three months.

I'll try to find out if everything else is doing just as well, or if we're an exception, but I find this both very heartening, and in some respect one more bit of fact to explain why some of us have turned their back on the Diamond market.

JM

[This message has been edited by JM Lofficier (edited 07-03-99).]

Regarding my comments about Bissette, Andrew Debley said, 'Then by your logic no one can criticize a movie unless they can make a better one. And no one can criticize the President unless they have what it takes to make it to the Oval Office themselves.'

Good point. Sorry, folks, my jab at the critics was rather half-baked, and I respectfully withdraw it.


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Joe Zabel
joezabel@hotmail.com
Vist the Amazing Montage webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~amazingmontage

Jean-Marc - you're my hero, man.

Rick - about that forest for the trees issue: I'm not sure where it sits with retailers, but I know that among vendors, Diamond does not play equally. I know they have told new publishers that the entry-level automatic discount to Diamond is 70% off retail(!) This is negotiable in some cases, and not in others.

I also know that when Starchild:Mythopolis was one of Valentino's Image titles, I got a bigger paycheck then for the same number of copies I sold later when the title came back to Coppervale. Reason? Because Image has a BROKERAGE deal with Diamond; books aren't sold to a distributor then resold - they are sold directly to retailers using Diamond as a dealmaker. Thus Image, and myself, got more money out of it. Coppervale or King Hell or Fantagraphics can't get a deal like that by going "exclusive" or even begging - Diamond doesn't negotiate.

Also, as far as my local comics guy goes, he insists that some of the exclusives offer worse deals than some non-exclusives - specifically referring to the 35% discounts Marvel (and DC?) has instituted.Besides, isn't DC under a brokerage deal, too? Maybe what we're dealing with isn't anything Diamond is (or isn't) doing to us little guys, but merely the fulfillment of the deals they made with the big guys that is overshadowing the whole market and just killing us by proxy...

Re: Sean Murphy's question about paying shipping for mail order.

Sean said:
"I've got a question about NPO (and other mail-order comic stores). Don't they charge shipping? I would think that the extra charge would discourage people from ordering on-line unless there wasn't a comic shop nearby."

Well, I ain't NPO, but I do mail order, so...

Most online stores charge shipping. The majority of people who shop online are of an income/disposition/whatever that they don't mind paying for shipping. Also, many large orders don't result in a large increase in shipping charges. UPS charges a base amount for any order, around $4 or so, and then goes up by a minute amount for each pound. Thereby, a single 24 page comic will be $4 to ship, while twenty 180 page graphic novels may only be $8 or so to ship. When someone is buying that large an amount of comics, the shipping isn't a big difference.

Also, many stores are beginning to offer free shipping (this is online book stores, rather than online comic book stores).

The flip side to this is discounts. Many online stores do discounts on their offerings. We offer a 15% on almost everything we sell.

And, as you said Sean, some people don't have a comic book store nearby. Most people in the U.S. certainly don't. Worldwide, the number is higher in some areas (western Europe, Japan) and nonexistant in others (any comic stores in Jordan?). So mail order is the only source for some people to find comics.

And then you get down to selection... sure you can walk into most any comic store and find a copy of the new Superman. But what about Whiteout? The Wiggly Reader? Les Cités Obscures? Noe-Fie? Mail order can often offer things that no physical store can, as I continue to find out.



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Jared Smith
jared@marsimport.com
owner
Mars Import
www.marsimport.com
"Quality Earth comics"

Coopervale,

Heh, sorry I tend to espouse hugely unpopular (and occaisionally highly questionable) ideas sometimes just to see what people's reactions to them are. It sometimes creates actual usable ideas. Not to mention the fact that Diamond just pisses me off sometimes. [img]http://207.69.158.95/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Don't get me wrong, I'd still love to see the Feds do something about the monopoly. I'd also like for Diamond to give us a paid option to get our books in if for some reason they don't think it'll sell as well as we do. If that meant they could still over ride it in the end. I'd like a more concise reason from them at that point. Like I said before "Andi: Raggedy Nation" sells great for us and the stores that we are aware of who sell it. Diamond didn't carry it and they couldn't give us a reason. Go figure.

As for NPO I honestly would like to see them do a similar deal with Cold Cut for back issues and then see how it turns out. (not an exclusive deal) If it works the industry as whole might be better off. I'll leave the beating on NPO to everyone else.



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Justin Savage
President/Editor/Web-bozo
Sabre's Edge
www.sabresedge.com


[This message has been edited by savage (edited 07-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by savage (edited 07-03-99).]

Rick: In regards to your question about discount levels, it is a complicated picture.
There are several discount levels identified on a line-item basis by a letter code.
Additionally, there are number codes appended to the letters for the so-called “Premier” or brokerage publishers. (For the record these are : DC, Image, Dark Horse, and Marvel.)

The letters describe the discount level, the numbers signify which publisher. This is the case because the brokerage publishers (except Dark Horse) set the order plateaus for the sliding-scale discounts individually.

While this complicates the job of calculating discounts somewhat, most stores order levels don’t change from month to month. Ergo the discount you get (for example) from Image is the same month in and month out.

The best discount is connected with the “D” discount code which presumably stands for Diamond. I’ve always believed that “E” is for enough, and “F” is for... well you can guess. “D” items range in discount from 35% to 59% depending upon order levels. Interestingly, the “D” discount applies only to the four brokerage publishers plus Acclaim and Cerebus.

The “E” discount level varies from 40% to 50% depending on order levels. It covers the larger comics publishers in the next tier (e.g.: Aardvark (trades), Abstract, Amaze Ink (front list), Antarctic (front list), Archie, Sirius... you get the idea: publishers of multiple comics or high-profile, higher-sales self-publishers like Terry Moore.

“F” is 40% to 45% and makes up most of the rest of the comics publishers.

“H” is 40% to all accounts and covers T-shirts, some books, and most magazines.

“I” is 35% to all and is a catch all for the books not covered by “H”, some magazines and novelties like Graphitti non-t-shirt items.

What this means it that most stores are befuddled about what they are paying for things until they get them. It’s HARD to keep up with this. I’ve often wondered who the evil genius was who came up with this “every item has a different discount
signified by a code with as many as 10 different possible values” system.

You don’t think they’re trying to confuse us, do you?

So in answer to the question you asked. a $2.95 comic from a brokerage publisher costs between $1.21 and $1.91. From a larger small publisher it would cost between $1.48 and 1.77. From a small small publisher it would be between $1.62 and $1.77. Unless it cost $1.91.

Still with me?

Now most (or at least many) of the “F” discount items (max 45% off) items are available from FMI and others at 50% off to all customers.

Oddly, Fantagraphics, Kim, has never cracked the 50% barrier at Diamond.

James: the 35% discount level is for orders under $400 a month for DC and $800 a month for Marvel. Ordering one each of the DC line (under $10 retail) for June adds up to $255 and for Marvel, it’s $126. At those sales levels you have to ask just what someone is doing at this. Presumably these are stores that are strictly oriented to advance catalogue orders, so there is relatively little risk of unsold comics, but there’s even less risk of making a living.

Oh, and as to the Feds, the only remedy that seems possible to expect is for the exclusivity arrangements to be voided. I know that there are a lot of former Capitalista’s who’d love the chance to start picking & packing again. And being free to take my business somewhere else would be good enough for me.

Jim Hanley

JM: I almost forgot, comparing the sales of a Moebius book at a Moebius exhibit to what a comic store can sell to its stable base of repeat customers is setting up a straw man. The vast majority of customers - even in a tourist-friendly store like Golden Apple, Hi-De-Ho, or Jim Hanley's Universe - come back week-after-week, year-after-year. How many copies do you expect a customer to buy?

Disneyland sells more Goofy back-scratchers than I could ever hope to (assuming i carried them.)

By the way, if you are the source for copies of the Epic editions, I'd like to talk to you about getting some. Ar least one of the Dark Horse editions has gone to back-order and we do need to have Moebius' work available for our regular customers as well as our occasional visitors.

As an aside, I've believed for some time that there are certain comics that it benefits us to stock beyond their actual sales. It seems that having things that our customers have already read and loved available makes them think better of our store. As a consequence, Airtight Garage, or Cerebus phone books, or Why I Hate Saturn on our shelves promote regular visits from customers with taste and money to spend. (My favorite kind.)

Jim Hanley

Jim:

It's not quite a Moebius Exhibit, but I take your point. What it is, is a very large game arcade area called "Moebius' Airtight Garage". If you're interested in more details, go and check out the METREON page on my Site, accessible from Main Hall here. It's worth taking a look at, I assure you.

Sony told us they're packing 32,000 visitors per day. I'm certain 99% have never heard of Moebius -- unlike what would be the case with a dedicated Moebius exhibit.

However, it is true that, while they are there, they may be inclined to visit the "MOEBIUS SHOP" and buy items -- sort of like your Disneyland analogy.

What I'm trying to find out is whether we (Moebius) are doing exceptionally well, or whether ALL graphic novels (including Hellboy, Concrete, The Mercenary, Sin City, Age of Reptiles, Dream Corridor, The Spirit and the Schuiten & Peeters books which I also recommended they stock) are also doing well. When/If I find ot the answers, I'll let you know.

I'll be glad to sell you books wholesale, as I do to Hi-de-Ho etc. Again, check out the MOBIUSMART page on my site. We can take it from there.

Best,

JM