Jim, thanks for explaining the incredibley complicated discount structure. Although I still find it hard to completely grasp it looks like I am reasonably correct in my assumption that the brokerage exclusive comics for the most part are gotten at a better discount (which I suggested will ultimately work to undermine sales of non-exclusive publishers). Am I also correct that the exclusives receive free advertising pages in the PREVIEWS catalog? Doesn't this also translate as an unfair cost advantage against a non exclusive publisher who has to pay $600 a page?
Kim, what is the deal with FANTAGRAPHICS presense in PREVIEWS?

About the CEREBUS rating: Sim told me that years ago he had agreed to a Diamond scheme to provide a better discount to them so they would pass it on to the retailers (70% I think) and his sales would rise. They didn't and he seemed to be constantly mulling whether to force diamond to go back to the other price. Perhaps though, the maneuver has provided him with a slight edge in this modern exclusive market?

------------------
Rick Veitch
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JM said: Sony told us they're packing 32,000 visitors per day. I'm certain 99% have never heard of Moebius -- unlike what would be the case with a dedicated Moebius exhibit.

32,000! A day! As my partner just said that's a problem we could learn to live with.

By contrast, our 33rd Street (opposite the Empire State Building) store's transaction count runs about 8,000 a month. And as I implied in my previous post the vast majority of those transactions were from customers who visit 6 or more times a month. So we're talking about 2,000 or so monthly visitors versus as many as 1,000,000. Even if we assume the 32,000 is a peak day that's 500,000.

I would hope that they could sell Airtight Garage to .07% of them. The question that we all continue to ponder is how many new readers can something like this create. It's like the Maus question: how many of the non-comics readers who purchased Maus were then inspired to seek out other comics. I'd assume that it was a very small percentage of them and that an even smaller percentage found anything of interest. And that's assuming that given the propensity to look for comics, they were able to find them at all.

If they went to Waldenbooks, they would have found Elfquest trades, Wolverine, Death of the Phoenix and Dark Knight. Despite their individual charms these are all far removed from Maus in style, content, and perceived artistic merit among the literary elite.

I'll be curious to hear if the visitors to the "MOEBIUS SHOP" make the leap to many of the other books you suggested.

Rick:

I'm not sure if I explained the discount structure or just filled up a bunch of space with skippable detail. And I neglected the conclusion that most stores would indeed pay less for a comic bought from a brokerage publisher than elsewhere. Additionally, it would be cheaper from most multi-title publishers than from a small small publisher. (I like annoying my word processor by repeating words.)

That said, I'm not sure that the price is the most important factor in the buying decision anyway. Most store owners would be hard-pressed to accurately say what price they pay for most stuff without a Talmudic study of all the factors that go into the equation. On the other hand, A title listed in the Image section will get more attention than one in the Sirius section. A title in the Sirius section trumps Crusade, etc.

For a self-selected group of stores the most interesting section of the order will always be Drawn & Quarterly, Fantagraphics, et. al., but mostly its a matter of publisher size and visibility.

I'm not certain about details of the brokerage deals (or the non-brokerage exclusives for that matter), but I've never been convinced that ad pages sell comics, anyway. It's like all the chattering about marketing in the business class. I can't think of a single comic that sold to consumers because of marketing. (Whispering campaigns about rarity and investment value don't count.)

I wish I had a dollar for every boob who's told me that the Malibu/Ultraverse nonsense was a great marketing campaign that, unfortunately, didn't sell the comics. The only thing it sold was Malibu to Marvel. Now that's marketing.

Jim Hanley

[This message has been edited by Jim Hanley (edited 07-04-99).]

Oops, this didn't fit.

Regarding Cerebus, I sure like getting it cheaper (now also from FMI) but most stores don't even know that it is cheaper. And most don't order it, except for advance orders. (Sad, but true.) I do tend to keep 10 or more back-issues in stock, but that is mainly because of the work and its importance to my customers, rather than the price.

[This message has been edited by Jim Hanley (edited 07-04-99).]

Regarding exclusives and discount levels. Generally speaking, comics are offered at a better discount level based on their sales level, rather than whether they are exclusives or not. It just happens that the better-selling books are usually from exclusive publishers - no great coincidence.

When I was working at Antarctic Press, Diamond changed our discount level from "F" to "E" - primarily to compete against Capital City. Diamond improved the discount on about two dozen publishers as well - because at the time Cap City was offereing about a 5% better discount on dozens of suppliers.

When I helped start up Radio Comix, our books were listed at an "F" discount, and we talked to Diamond about improving that to "E", but our average sales level was just a little bit too low to justify the better discount.

Regarding exclusive deals, during the height of the "exclusive wars" frenzy Diamond and Capital City were approaching all the big and mid-sized publishers with one deal or another (even Friendly Frank's floated a proposal). The "quality" of the deal depended upon the size and potential sales level of the publisher. Generally speaking, most deals involved guaranteed listings of front-list items, expanded back-list coverage, discounts on ads, guaranteed space in Previews, and additional promotional coverage overall. Eventually, Antarctic Press ended up as the second-largest non-exclusive publisher left (behind Topps), and we were getting the "hard sell" from both Diamond and Cap City. Ultimately we signed a "non-exclusivity" agreement, where we agreed to not go exclusive with anyone - that got us 10% off ads (which we were getting anyway since we were a contract advertiser), plus we could design a two-page section of our own to appear in the "select" section of the catalog (later changed to guaranteed coverage and a free ad when Diamond dropped the select section). Other publishers got other deals based on their size, and relative importance.

And regarding exclusive publishers, there's only five left: Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse and Wizard. Two more previously-exclusive publishers were quietly dropped from the exclusive list this summer - Archie and Gemstone. It's clear to me that the nonsensical days of exclusivity are over - it's only a matter of time before the remaining publishers open up their doors as well.

Best,
- Matthew High, Cold Cut Distribution

Matt: Does this mean that Cold Cut will be carrying Gemstone books (or could if you wanted to?)

Or do some publishers maintain a "voluntary" exclusivity?

Holy moley. Okay, from the top.

**JARED: Adding "genre" codes to the comics (as opposed to organizing them by genre, which is what I thought we were discussing) seems like a small additional fillip that may be of some slight use to retailers who love tracking their sales everywhichway, but seems of little use otherwise.

**MARC: Well, yes. But bear in mind that if Diamond were to ADD all the amateur-doofus titles they'd need to add man-hours and printing that would not be covered by the income currently generated by the catalog. Also, I don't know that what they charge for advertising would necessarily reflect what their cost is -- since advertising is in principle supposed to raise the sales level of the item advertised, an ad in PREVIEWS actually benefits Diamond as well. If someone spends $600 on an ad, he's assuming that he'll sell enough to make back at least this money, which means he's figuring on selling at a minimum a couple thousand dollars' worth of comics, which means Diamond would clear a couple hundred more through those added sales. (Circular, isn't it?)

**BEN: I realize that among the "amateur doofi" there are probably a number of talents, or at least demi-talents, whom I do not wish to disparage. But anyone who's run a company and sifted throught the slushpile, and I'm sure this applies equally to the Diamond retailers who do their triage, will agree that "amateur doofus" is probably a kind way of putting it for 98% of these guys.

**RICK: I wish Diamond discounts were better for Fantagraphics titles too, but someone farther down points out that it has more to do with sales levels than with exclusives-vs.-non-exclusives. The amount of labor it takes for Diamond to distribute 50,000 copies of BATMAN is NOT 20 times the amount of labor it takes to distribute 2,500 copies of MINIMUM WAGE, but the MINIMUM WAGE income is still only 5% of the BATMAN income.

I don't know that a tightening of discount rates necessarily strangles smaller comics: If I'm a retailer and I'm selling 20 copies of EIGHTBALL at 50%, and a year later EIGHTBALL's discount is 40% and I'm still selling 20 copies of EIGHTBALL, I may be irritated but I'm not going to stop selling EIGHTBALL -- nor am I going to take my EIGHTBALL investment and buy a comic (or more copies of a comic) I can't sell, or doubt that I can sell, that just happens to have a 50% discount because it's from an exclusive. Anyway, if Diamond cuts discounts too close to the bone, FMI and Last Gasp are waiting in the wings to satisfy every retailer's EIGHTBALL or MINIMUM WAGE needs, and for that matter, Fantagraphics still deals directly with retailers at the good ol' 50% discount.

**DON: This is the same Don Markstein who gave me shit on another thread for "goading" him by dragging in politics (via smart-alecky jibes) at inopportune moments, isn't it?

We didn't get into distribution because we already have a job and don't need a second one. (And frankly I don't know how thrilled a lot of small publishers would be at the idea of Fantagraphics controlling a major distribution organization -- how exactly would this be different from DC controlling Image, Dark Horse, and Marvel's distribution? I mean, aside from the fact that we're the Good Guys and DC is the Bad Guys?) And it's still not a monopoly. You can still sell through FMI or Last Gasp or buy a list of the 1,000 best, most small-publisher-friendly stores and send out a solicitation flyer for less than it costs to take out an ad in PREVIEWS. If you do that (hey, you can offer great discounts!) and get zippo orders from those stores, it might be time to hop aboard the Clue Train and switch your career to plumbing.

I'm paranoid about losing this novel, so I'm going to post it and return for a second helping if needed.

**BEN: Your experience with PRISONOPOLIS seems pretty conclusive -- Diamond arranged for 500 retailers to get copies at virtually no cost (we've used this program a few times ourselves), and the retailers, who had been presented with the best possible promotion, plain didn't order. They didn't think they could sell it. (In fact, I bet most of them put it on their shelves and, four weeks later, took it back down again, or put it in the quarter box. I mean, if it had sold, they would have ordered the next issue, right?) That's too bad, but it tends to support the idea that there are certain books that retailers just don't think they can sell and won't order, and a retailer panel making those decisions saves Diamond from listing a lot of 'em.

**JARED: I don't know anyone who lives near a store that carries what they want, and that will make an effort to special-order items they don't have, who orders by mail-order. Given the risk of damage, the delays, the shipping cost, the customer's inaibility to leaf through the book before purchasing, the absence of the sheer consumer satisfaction of forking over your money and walking out with a physical object, mail-order is ALWAYS second best, except to shut-ins and sociopaths. (I realize I'm not arguing with you here, I'm just throwing in my two cents.) Any mail-order shop that offers deep discounting AND free shipping (the only way to "beat" a well-stocked local store) won't be around long enough to make a difference.

**RICK: I'm not sure what "what's the deal with the Fantagraphics presence in PREVIEWS?" means, exactly (it sounds like the opening line in a REALLY bad comedian's monologue), but if you're looking for details of our specific arrangement with Diamond I can't help you there. Like all publishers, we've negotiated our way to something we're comfortable with, and the details are no one's business but ours and Diamond's. Sorry.

I think the CEREBUS example suggests that better discounts to the retailer don't mean jack shit so far as continuing sales on established titles is concerned. It appears that ratcheting up the discount by 10% and passing this savings on to Joe Retailer just meant that Joe Retailer, instead of ordering additional copies of CEREBUS, ordered the same eight copies of CEREBUS, pocketed a few extra bucks for it, and Dave Sim lost 25% of his income. (Of course, it's possible that CEREBUS's sales would actually have declined in that period, and the more generous discount kept sales at a higher level, but that kind of thing is impossible to measure.) Which is why we've resisted suggestion from Diamond that boiled down to "give us a better discount, we'll pass it on to the retailers, and they'll order more copies" -- because we think that's a load of hooey.

Um...I think that's about it.

Kim --

Let me reiterate that I'm in basic agreement with what both you and Steve Lieber said regarding Diamond's right to cut a book. Also, I just want to say that I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about whatever it was that wasn't going right with PRISONOPOLIS -- as Rick says, we need to be talking about the forest not the trees. (I do feel compelled to defend myself against any charges of being a "doofus", but I will keep my defense very short, I promise.)

I want to start this message out by talking about the big picture. While publishing my own comics, I quickly learned it was a smart move to talk to people who had been publishing for a while (Rob Walton, Joe Zabel) and also to people who were just getting started (people like David Yurkovich -- who has been praised profusely by Cliff Biggers -- and Brian Clopper, who has been praised by people like B.C. Boyer and Tony Isabella). I wanted to understand through experience how the self-publishing process worked, and I talked to as many different people about the current state of the market as I could.

As I've said before, I've rubbed shoulders with a lot of fellow self-publishers who I certainly didn't think were "amateur doofuses."

Let me take this opportunity to show you what I think an amateur doofus IS and ISN'T.

This clearly is a comic book page drawn by an amateur doofus: (Believe it or not, I have seen comics that were listed in the Diamond catalog that looked this bad.)

[img]http://www2.bitstream.net/~bena/comics/doofus.gif[/img]

I hope it is clear that the person who drew the page below is no amateur doofus. Wouldn't you say said artist would be a strong contender to do a story for a Wally Wood tribute comic? Don't you think he could have drawn the Ninja Turtles during the black and white boom? The simple truth is, you can draw this well and have trouble getting orders for 300 copies in this market.

[img]http://www2.bitstream.net/~bena/comics/nodoof.gif[/img]

Now, I'd like to add that I think that, after an extended trial period, even a comic with great art like we see above DOES NOT deserve catalog space if it doesn't sell copies. It's really no different than a critically-acclaimed show by Chris Carter not catching fire (see MILLENIUM), well-received Vertigo titles getting low orders (see SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE), recent DC Universe titles getting low orders (see THE CREEPER & CHASE) or Fantagraphics titles getting low orders (see POOT, STICKBOY, and MEATCAKE). Eventually, at some point, the plug has to be pulled.

So a lot of comics that I see not making it seem more like failed television show pilots (Al Franken has a new show the critics love ... the last I heard, people weren't watching it) than John Byrne wannabe fiascos by 13-year-olds.

Kim, in some of posts, you almost seem to be implying that a lot of the problem with Diamond is that they are in fact too lenient in what they accept. I think that a lot of our problems are due to a lack of focus and a lack of consensus. If about 300 independent-friendly stores (what some people think the total number of independent-friendly stores is) aren't in any kind of agreement on what is good and what isn't, we're creating an environment where hardly anything can succeed. Further more, if a lot of retailers have written off all independent titles as marginal (an even bigger problem), we're in even bigger trouble.

Let me talk a little about indy comics creator Sam (THE MAGIC WHISTLE) Henderson. Kim, I know that you personally think very highly of Sam Henderson. (Actually, I think he's a riot too.) However, there was in fact, a heavily mixed reaction to a recent issue of TMW from the retailer panel that writes for the CBG. Some of the retailers gave the issue an A. Others gave it an F. He doesn't turn everyone's crank, but he does have a cult following. I personally don't consider Sam to be a doofus creator, but if the community of people who hawk and sell comics can't agree that he's great, he should be cut from the catalog too.

Now let's say panels of retailers are equally divided about PAKKIN'S LAND, CATHY GUISEWITE COMICS & STORIES, James O'Barr's MAD GOTH ON THE RAMPAGE, and a slew of disparate comic books that all reach out to different people. I think that what happens is that (1) independent comics lack a cohesive identity, and (2) if the creators do the comics for themselves rather than the retailers, the retailers become frustrated with the comics altogether.

We might actually be better off if all the problem creators ran their own stores (like J.M. Lofficier...who I don't think is a "problem creator"...but I hope you see my point) and tried to sell their comics to the people who they think would buy them.

I think that any way out of the current mess we're in involves more dialogue, more reviews, more outreach, and more consensus-building. Based on what I've said above, wouldn't you say that's a reasonable conclusion? I really think THE COMICS JOURNAL has brought about a lot of great dialogue, so congratulations for your sometimes outstanding work!

(*************)

Now I just wanted to add a short paragraph in response to what you said about PRISONOPOLIS.

Kim Thompson said:



First of all, Kim, it sounds like you think I'm against a retailer panel. If you'd go back and read what I said, you'd discover it's quite the opposite. I WANTED a retailer panel evaluation. I didn't get one. I have very little intuition as to what it is retailers want. I want to hear where they're coming from. I want to understand what they need to sell something enthusiastically.

PRISONOPOLIS was praised by Tony Isabella (a former retailer), and Cliff Biggers (argueably the most high-profile retailer out there). Ilia Carson of MELTDOWN COMICS in L.A. (she's mentioned very favorably in a post below) did sell at least 5 copies of each issue at cover price. Whenever I take it to conventions, people buy it. I also meet people at conventions who bought previous issues and want more. One store I did a signing at did indeed sell out of a subsequent issue. Combine this with praise from Joe Zabel and Rob Walton (two well-regarded independent creators) and you'd think I'd have a shot at making the comic work.

Based on what I've been hearing about the present state of the market, I think that you need a very vocal core group of supporters (reviewers, retailers, readers) screaming loud and often "BUY THIS COMIC!" to get an independent comic off the ground. Either I didn't find this group as quickly as I needed to or it just plain wasn't out there.

I really wish I had got some feedback on those SMALL PRESS SAMPLER copies. Sometimes I wonder if they were even read. (This is why I said I'd happily pay for feedback earlier.)

Y'know, when it really started to look like it wasn't going to work out for me, I had a talk with Jeff (COLONIA) Nicholson. Nicholson has been praised profusely by Steve Bissette, got a Xeric Foundation grant, and also had a FATHER & SON proposal accepted by Fantagraphics. Jeff related to me all the frustrations he went through publishing LOST LAUGHTER, which he got a Xeric Foundation grant for. Frankly, LOST LAUGHTER's sales were to indy comics sales then what PRISONOPOLIS sales have been to indy comics sales today. Jeff advised me to step back, come up with a new concept that I have my heart invested in, and start a new series. (Jeff more or less did this with COLONIA.) Steve Conley apparently did this after SAVANT GUARD failed, Zander Cannon came back with REPLACEMENT GOD after his Tick mini-series failed. Lots of people loved Warren Ellis' STORMWATCH. It didn't sell, but he's still writing comics. My plan is pretty much to follow their lead.

You will be hearing more from me.

I just wanted to add that I think PRISONOPOLIS was a great idea for a comic, and I think that growing prison populations are going to be a hot topic in the news media in the months to come. (The issue has already made the cover of THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY, which referred to a "prison-industrial complex.") I'm also very flattered that I got the praise that I did, and I intend to build on all the positives from the whole experience. Frankly, I know the issues I have are in fact very saleable, and I know people who indeed love them.

And, by the way, Kim, I got scored in the 95th percentile in the Graduate Record Exams and work as a computer programmer. So I'm not going back to my doofus burger flipping or plumbing job. (Incidentally, I CAN think of plumbers and even file clerks who are in fact seriously cool people.) Frankly, maybe I should have taken Kevin Smith's advice and applied my intellect towards independent film instead.

Finally, just to end this novel on a positive note (being the pariah that I am, I like to do this often) --- Kim, I really love your posts on gun control. You're completely on the mark when discussing the topic.




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Ben Adams
Read PRISONOPOLIS and discuss MURDER BY CROWQUILL online at www.mediawarpcomics.com .


[This message has been edited by Ben Adams (edited 07-05-99).]

>>I think the CEREBUS example suggests that better discounts to the retailer don't mean jack shit so far as continuing sales on established titles is concerned.<<

I wouldn't go that far. I have one example of how it works on front-list items, and another where it worked on back-list items.

First, back in 1997, Antarctic Press dropped two comic titles that were promptly picked up by a new publisher - Radio Comix. In the process, they dropped from an "E" discount to an "F" discount - and dropped by about 15% in sales. Arguably, though, the drop in sales could be attributed to moving to a smaller, lesser-known publisher...

At last year's San Diego Comic Con (when I was still working for Antarctic Press), I talked Cold Cut into listing all relisted AP comics at a flat-50% discount (by selling books to them at a similarly-better discount). Since then, sales on backlisted AP books through Cold Cut have more than doubled (while at the same time AP's overall presence in the comics industry has significantly weakened).

As a general rule, though, I suspect discounts are much more important to retailers when deciding how many copies of a new title to order, rather than already-existing titles.

Best
- mlh

>>Matt: Does this mean that Cold Cut will be carrying Gemstone books (or could if you wanted to?)

Maybe. At this point is basically depends on whether the retailers we deal with are interested in buying it from us. Right now, about 90% of the new titles and publishers we pick up are based on retailer demand, and there are always too many titles and too little money to add everything.

Personally, right now I'm pushing for Cold Cut to pick up more DC/Vertigo trades, more Fantagraphics/Eros trades and back issues, and Faans from 6-Handed Press.

Best,
- mlh