Jim:

I agree about Bob Beerbohm's article. I know I've discussed it somewhere here.

Your points about the lineage of distibutors from the UG world makes sense. I had never really thought of the Direct Market as a direct outgrowth of the underground until Steve brought it up. In light of your direct involvement, I'll bow to your judgement.

Steve:

Never having met Joe Calamari, I can't speak to his grasp of the field, but I'm willig to give him the benefit of the doubt. He was widely rumored to be involved in a start-up with Carol Kalish just before her passing. If Carol thought that well of him, I am hard pressed to contradict her judgement.

Stephen and Jim F. and Jim H.:

Regarding the Comics Unlimited "shot across the bow"...I see it as a combination of:

1. Being pissed off at these guys always criticizing them.

2. "Hey, since we're going to buy Heroes World, maybe we can direct some business their way."

3. "We'll show everyone that we mean business!"

What I think was the biggest blunder they made though with the Heroes World Acquisition was making them them the "Exclusive" source for Marvel product. I thought (and I had this conversation with Larry Marder, my DLG partners, Bill Schanes and Bob Wayne) they would proceed this way:

1. They would simply raise the price of their comics. They would accomplish this by cutting 5% off the wholesale cost, selling to the IADD members at 55% off instead of the customary 60%+. The IADD members would then pass this increase on to retailers and the wholesale price would increase from 55%+ off to 50%+ off.

2. They would lower the minimum orders to purchase direct at 55% Off to a number that would be attainable by new mega-retailers such as Moondog's and Lone Star. These minimums also would be attainable by the buying cooperatives (like the DLG) and to the toy stores and other non-direct accounts that were sniffing around the biz back then.

3. Heroes World, a small regional distributor, would be able to handle the paperwork involved with this new plan, in essence act as Marvel's Sales Department, but WOULDN'T HAVE TO RECEIVE THE GOODS AND RESHIP THEM. THEY WOULD CONTINUE TO BE SOLD TO RETAILERS THROUGH THEIR REGULAR DISTRIBUTORS. Therefore not disrupting the flow of product to the market.

The result of this three-pronged plan would be the following: Marvel would increase their bottom line therefore making their quarterly report to shareholders look better. Marvel would stimulate new business by making their goods available to new enterprises at a price 10% better than those companies could get through an IADD distributor. And they wouldn't overload Heroes World's infrastructure and bring the entire market to a virtual standstill. CCD would still be in business today and we'd have a competitive marketplace again.

I think Larry Marder was right calling the Heroes World debacle "Pearl Harbor", but I also think it's accurate to say Perlman's purchase of Marvel was like Hitler being named Chancellor of Germany.

Gary-
The scenario you outline above would have been a far smarter way for Marvel to proceed than what they actually did.
I can think of only two objections to it, neither of which is likely to have had any effect whatever on the decision-makers at Marvel:
First, it would have been really sleazy--even
scummier than what they did, which at least had the "virtue" of screwing everyone equally.
Second, there might actually have been something illegal about it, though I can't quite think what... Any lawyers listening?

I'd like to think things would have turned out differently, but I'm inclined to think the whole process might have ground inexorably on pretty much as it did: DC was seemingly bent on having an exclusive deal, the second-tier publishers seemed to have no notion of the value of preserving competition in distribution, and Marvel probably would have operated Heroes World as badly as they actually did, then bailed out to Diamond instead of Capital.

But there's a whole slew of parallel universes out there where it happened the way you outlined. Too bad we're not in one of 'em.

I wasn't paying a lot of attention to events at the time Marvel iced Walter, so I don't know anything about what happened. Having been a publisher sales manager for a while several years before that, however, I got a good sense of what the various distributors were like to do business with. Walter paid fast (rare, and always a big plus), but he was often really a pain to deal with in other ways. I liked him and respected him (and often agreed with his complaints), but it's easy to imagine him pissing off a big powerful arrogant publisher with no sense of humor just one time too many. And, as you point out, he competed directly and almost exclusively with Heroes World. If Marvel was looking for someone to ritually butcher in front of the assembled multitude, it makes sense that he'd be at the top of the list.

[This message has been edited by Jim Friel (edited 12-09-1999).]

If I may add, it did not seem too coincidental at the time that Marvel had just chastized Don Thompson at the CBG as well. Glad Jim mentioned the Diamond/Frank Miller address, too; haven't been reminded, that also fits the chronology of events. I remember being with you, Gary, and Larry Marder just after that address Frank delivered, insulting Marvel to much applause -- and your comments, Gary, about Marvel's likely reaction. (Bre'r Larry, he lay low.)

Clearly, being the biggest fish in the pond at that point in time, the then-current regime had had ENOUGH -- and proceeded accordingly to bring anyone in range or in their sights to their knees, with the end goal to bring the market to its collective knees.

That was probably the intent -- all they succeeded in doing in the end, of course, was hamstring themselves, along with everyone else.

Whoa, that was a powerful observation.

This is a bunch of information to process for someone who was not part of it. I for one would like to have just a general timeline in my head.

Your mentioning Miller's speech as a piece of that history made me wonder -

How would you all place the information presented at the Sand Diego TCJ "trial" into all this? Is it generally accepted by you guys and can be "weaved" in fairly smoothly?

Thanks,
Greg

Greg:
"How would you all place the information presented at the Sand Diego TCJ "trial" into all this? Is it generally accepted by you guys and can be "weaved" in fairly smoothly?"

Wasn't there, don't know the specifics. For the purposes of this thread, could you (or anyone else qualified) please synopsise "the information"? Or post a link to same, if it's in existence on this board or extant elsewhere. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Stephen R Bissette (edited 12-10-1999).]

http://www.tcj.com/3_online/f_nuremburg.html

Sca-thing.
____

Side question - your name came up to be added to my one true cause post - getting certain creators the message that we would like to see more of their work. I believe I read that you're out for good?

------------------
Formerly FWAA, Fan with An Agenda.
(Al Williamson, pick up a pencil!)

Greg,

See my updated site at www.comicon.com/bissette

For more, e-mail me. Don't wish to divert this thread elsewhere for a moment.
______________________

Another question for the gathered retail community: What factors among your customers did you witness that contributed to the drop in Marvel customers? Image must have diluted the core buying base enormously, but what other observations/events/comments were you privvy to?

The single biggest reason for our drop in Marvel orders was the tremendous drop in Marvel quality.

Marvel has over the last 4 years with vampire like glee, continued to drain the lifeblood out of what were once at least decent to good comics. Peter David on Hulk...there was a time in our store, like as late as last year, when we sold more hulks than say Xmen even. Now all the titles are completely renumbered and started over again. Hulk at 17? Thor at 24? Thats too bad, because part of the identity of a title was in how many issues were consecutive, at least for me and many readers I know. Continuity on stories and mythos has been completely shattered, the once flagship SpiderMan for example, being trashed to worthless rubble. Its insidious.

People buy DC comics mostly in our store, those and independents. DC has gone back to what made comics great to begin with, story story story and art art art and continuity. Take NO MANS LAND, I personally hated that story, but it woke up interest big time in the store on ALL Batman titles which promptly disappeared off the shelves. I have no Batman back issues. DC takes the time to FLOOD us with PointOfPurchase so that we can "point" at any book of theirs we wish to sell essentially. Marvel sends us no POP.

The customers are speaking loud and clear, with the exception of AVENGERS titles and Xmen, I sell small on most Marvel titles.

Stephen,
What drove Marvel buyers off in droves?
During the Heroes World fiasco we stopped supporting Marvel in our stores. No promo posters, no POP, nothing but a line on the subscription form. Our rationale was why support a company that was not only NOT supporting us but making life as difficult as possible in every aspect of carrying their product. We promoted DC and Dark Horse instead as we felt these companies were supporting us.
The Heroes Reborn 'starting over' was not as much a great jumping on point as a jumping off point. Everyone but Marvel knew that Rob Liefeld was no longer the creator of choice. The re-restart did not curry the favor of long-time readers -- our core buying base.
Marvel never recovered from the Heroes World debacle in my stores. The restarts were just more fallout. X-Men, which had always been the core of Marvel's sales, became diluted to a point of confusion for most readers. That was the final straw falling out of the Marvel readership.
Today, we get Marvel Millions in support but adding more mediocre books to the stands does not set the reading world on fire. It's been speculated that these titles have only gained print-run to shore up falling numbers at the printer.
There is nothing new in the Marvel stable with the exception of the Marvel Knights (okay, not really new but at least new-looking). And they're horribly late. It doesn't matter why they're late, they're not on the stands and that loses readers.
It's been a parade of bad decisions and it's marched itself into a dead-end street.

Phil Boyle
Coliseum of Comics