Thank you all for both having this discussion and then resurrecting it, I missed it the first times around (in both senses). The information here has been amazing. I was "there" (as a retailer) for the whole Heroes World debacle, but was only a reader for all the earlier stuff.

Jim's original question was, "Now, The question is: now that the big publishers have destroyed the comics retailing trade and the newsstand distribution business has withered away, what could be the future means of distributing comics to potential readers. That is, real, solid, printed bundles of paper, rather than virtual Internet comics."

While there has been some wonderful discussion of the history, something desperately needed, there was very little attention paid to Jim's actual question (aside from a bit by Chris J.). There are some very learned & experienced folks on this discussion, including the Jims, Rory, Milton, Gary, and a few others who I cannot recall at 4:30am, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

My question, boiled from Jim's is this: What things do you believe need to be done to maintain graphic storytelling as a viable hobby and/or art form?

And here is the point of my reiterating this. Something has obviously got to be done, at least I'm guessing that we all agree on that. It seems obvious to me that doing things the same just ain't working, as is evidenced by the monthly sales graphs in C&GR. It is very hard for me to formulate what I am trying to say here, so bear with me as I wiggle this out of my befuddled skull.

1) Go off the assumption that "Something has to be done."
2) That means that someone, somewhere has to decide what needs to be done, even if that someone is a bunch of different someones all deciding something different.
3) Then someone has to execute it.

So, if an experienced, wise, and knowledgeable group of advisors (such as yourselves, for example) could come to a consensus on what needs to be done to continue the form, then that would give everyone a starting point. As industry professionals and fans, we could take that and work to make it happen.

Okay, that still seems a bit hazy, so let me make an example. Let's say, our theoretical group of advisors agrees that expanding the TPB/GN format would be a "very good thing" (this is *just* an example). Then I, as a show organizer could include retail seminars like "Selling More GNs", or creator/publisher seminars like "Marketing Your OGN" in my shows knowing that these are at least decently likely to be actually helping the business. Or, Johnny the Fan could start shifting his purchases away from the periodicals and more towards the GNs to encourage retailers to order more and publishers to produce more. Or, Jane the retailer could start experimenting more with GNs, knowing that this course of action was recommended by a decent number of intelligent and experienced people.

Of course, I realize that you all in no way want to be "responsible" for deciding what will save the industry, but, for God's sake, SOMEONE has to do it. And, if we added just a few more to the mix (Hibbs & Costa spring to mind) then I really cannot think of a better group to have some idea of what to do. The posts on this discussion show that, if nothing else. And it sure as hell has been shown that the ones making the decisions now don't know what they are doing, so you couldn't do worse than them.

_I_ certainly don't know what would be the best thing to do. And I'm sure there are plenty of other people who are in the same boat I am. We *want* to help, but we are not sure what is the best thing to do. Of course, we all have our own opinions, but a lot of those are born out of ignorance and our own desires. Sure, I'd love to see us go to an anthology magazine and GN format, but is that the best way to go or just the way I like my purchases? To have some leadership from a coalition of experienced professionals would be so helpful. Maybe even put it together in printed form to give it some solidity. A treatise on what any given person could do to help maintain and grow the form given their own position: fan, creator, retailer, publisher, distributor, etc. It would not even have to be very long, just a few key action items for each category to give them some guidance.

I realize that these types of discussions have railed long and hard on these boards and others for quite a while now, but heck, you brought it back up Jim, so don't blame me. But, as far as I know, those old discussions never ended with anything particularly productive, except to give everyone a chance to vent. What I am talking about here is the attempt to actually come up with an Action List. Something real and solid with recommended courses of action.

Okay, enough rambling. Wail away.

Sincerely,

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James Echols
Festival Producer - UncommonCon, www.uncommoncon.com
Business Coach - Uncommon Solutions
ride the revolution

James:

The best I have been able to come up with is to keep encouraging new entrepeneurs to open stores. Few of us who have been at this for years have the energy to open many new stores and the lack of stores is the main obstacle to growth.

The question is how to inspire people to want to do this for a living. especially when all anyone can talk about is how bad things are.

A lot of us who opened stores in the 1970s and 1980a were motivated to do things better than the stores we had seen. Too many of today's fans seem content to complain without considering what they could do about the situation.

Milton:

I sure would like to see some attempt to extract people's memories and perspectives as we discussed when on this thread the first time around. Does that fit within ICv2's portfolio?

Jim, I think it's great to encourage new blood to build and open stores in the industry. But, imaging them doing so with hard earned money, only to be confronted with Marvel mentality right now. Underproducing comics doesn't help get comics into the hands of the readers. Industry must change along with the notion that it will grow without product in demand of the consumer.

The lack of Marvel reorders is a temporary thing that will be reversed by the next management change or two. It is also no reason not to consider opening a store.

Stores that carry a wide selection of backlist are doing exceptionally well of late. Marvel's announced plans for getting back into the backlist business bode well for this type of store, which is the only type of store I would recommend anyway.

I read this entire thread this morning, and was utterly fascinated. In particular, Jim's first post. Someone NEEDS to put out a well-researched history of the DM. In particular, I would like to read more about Phil, but a blow by blow of events would be helpful. I think we can learn a lot from past experiences.... maybe we'll see something from back then that will spark a revitalization. Plus, we need to educate folks today who have no idea what's been going on in the last 30 years.

Here's some regional info: I've been buying comics here in San Antonio TX since the late 70's. I started buying them at Circle K convenience stores when I was 8-9 years old. They had a round rack. From there, I moved to buying them at flea markets from dealers in the early 80's. It wasn't until the mid 80s that some of those dealers were able to expand into full blown brick/mortar stores. So the first full fledged comics shops I recall in San Antonio came about in the early to mid 80's. From there, there was an explosion in the early 90's, and there were lots of stores here (about 25-30 by my count). But then, when the spiral started, I saw many of those shops close (here, in San Marcos, and Austin). Now, it's down to about 10-12 (at the most). I haven't seen dealers at flea markets for several years, although there may be some small timers out here somewhere. One new thing I've noticed (in the last 3 years) is that the comics stores have all built up pretty good trade paperback selections. But, about 5 years ago, they built a bunch of Borders and Barnes & Nobel superstores here. These guys carry lots of trade paperbacks. I'm always suprised to see graphic novels in traditional bookstores... and I always get jazzed when I do. It's because in the late 80's, you couldn't find a graphic novel in a trad bookstore to save your life. Back then, a graphic novel collection in Waldenbooks consisted of DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, THE GREATEST JOKER STORIES, & THE GREATEST SUPERMAN STORIES. B. Dalton never even had any. But nowadays, you can see great TPB collections in Borders and Barnes. Times sure have changed. It'll be interesting to see where we go next.

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______________________
Fernando H. Ramirez
nando_ramirez@hotmail.com
http://www.fernandoramirez.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FWAA:
Whoa, that was a powerful observation.


When did you get back, dude? AND WHERE THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN?

A large part of that Big Rapids collection still exists in Rochester, NY for those who do not remember it. And, I still have my Phil Sueling convention shirt from the heydays. What a kick! Great conventions! Does anyone remember the first 12 or 20 stores that opened during that period of the early 70's? Milton, you must know them..

[This message has been edited by Empires (edited 03-14-2001).]

Hi, Milton--good to see you here.

You're far more likely to be correct in your recollections of BRDC business-related stuff than I am--but I thought I remembered that they had acquired the Well News distribution business while leaving the guys their retail outlet, Monkey's Retreat.
I was probably too stoned to properly absorb what Gary was telling me...

I didn't know Jim and Pete were inside. I don't think I'll look up anyone from BR either. The only one I've seen at all since 1980 is Michael John, who I ran into at an American Booksellers' Association convention in 1986--he told me at that time that Kennedy was running a used bookstore somewhere.

As far as BR's potential for violence went, I never knew (or cared to find out) just how serious it was.
I know they had guns.
I heard about confrontations with both unions who couldn't comprehend the concept of a worker-owned business and with the local ID's goons.
There was always a lot of talk (too much to be fully credible, I thought) about breaking people's knees and tossing them into the Detroit River.
I guess I felt that there was an undercurrent of real threat there that was oddly diffused because they overplayed the tough guy role.
If they had been truly dangerous, it seems to me that they would have been a little quieter about it.
Still, I never wanted to push them.

I think that Carol Kalish, good as she was at what she did, has assumed mythic stature in part because of the contrast between her competence and the succession of nitwits and sleazeballs that have run Marvel into the ground since her time. Its easy to forget that she was just a sales manager--a brilliant and very influential one, but nonetheless not someone who could necessarily have prevented disastrous decisions from being made at higher levels.

That's a very shrewd observation about continuity-intense content and the relationship between the book and the periodical format--it seems intuitively obvious when you put it that way, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it expressed so clearly before. My own feeling is that for several different reasons, the periodicals will continue to decline, if not absolutely, then certainly as a percentage of overall comics sales.



[This message has been edited by Jim Friel (edited 03-21-2001).]

Jim & Milton:

As far as Carol Kalish is concerned, I am one of her admirers who has often suggested that things would have been very different, had she lived.

I have never seen this as deification. Rather, I see it as a hard eyed view of her importance to the field for those years she was at Marvel. Her job was central to the comics business, in a way that no one's has been since. Nor is anyone likely to hold a similar role at the comics crossroads anytime soon.

In addition to her Marvel job description, she was, as Milton puts it, "devoted to the comic specialty market." That combined with her intellectual gifts and good sense made her a formidable figure.

To be sure, she was tough. I alluded to this early in this thread. But her actions did not simply benefit Marvel. Through her use of Marvel's resources, she made things better for the retailer class, something that endeared her to me. The growth of the field that followed her accession to Marvel Direct Sales management might have happened without her, but I'm dubious.

So, accepting her nature as someone who didn't suffer fools (myself included) gladly doesn't negate the real beneficial effect her work had for me and for the larger comics market.

Not a goddess, but a smart, committed, difficult person who left the field better than she found it. That's an epitaph I could stand to see on my grave stone.

Too many words. How about we stick with just "Not a goddess"?