If advertising does not work, I have a few questions. Does that mean that the market potential is totally static - that those who might enjoy comics are already buying them? And does that mean, with kids having many more options these days, that retailers are selling to a shrinking, maturing audience?

Even if this is the case, it seems to me that there are a lot of books out right now that would appeal to a larger audience. Is it worth trying to get these books into more people's hands?

So -
1. If you are a retailer that has advertised comics, what did you advertise? Specific books? Specific companies? General ads? Please do not flame - this is a serious question.

2. How do we get product with more appeal out to more people? For a start, how about a sunday paper insert, sponsored by publlishers and retailer's organizations, featuring a few pages of some of the better work out there? Please do not flame - if this isn't an option, please just let me know why.

I do not believe Marvel and DC are trying to change the industry. But if other publishers and retailers do not, then I think we can all just stop talking about this industry, sit back, and read the comics we enjoy while we still can.

As many as it takes to save the industry. As many as it takes. If I spend all my time only watching my own back then something in front of me will just as easily take me out.
Obviously this is not an overnight solution, but I don't think any real solutions are quick and easy. This is a problem, that whatever the solution, will not work overnight and that just may be the problem. Like Von mentioned people just seem to want things done faster and faster and the sad fact is that you won't get anything of quality in a realtivly short amount of time.
The only solution that will work is one that will take a lot of work, blood, and tears before we see any real result, but when we do. I gurantee that fix will stay around a lot quicker than a glossy, ploybagged, card inseterted, scratch and sniff glow in the dark cover fix would.



Yes, but I have also seen some ads for Sci-fi and fantasy books in comic books. If the door swings one way, why not the other. I'd like to see and advertising attempt made on the book readers of America. Good grief they're already readers! Which I must admit is a depressingly declining number to begin with.



I do. I self publish my own comic book that I not only promote at comic book shows, but other pseudo related cons as well. I show up at Anime cons where I am frequently the only publisher there, I'm currently trying to get my book into the Tower Records stores as well as some book clubs. I have a website, I am in the process of helping to form a co-op (which by the way is also discussing alternative advertising) and running ads in the local college papers. What I don't see is the big guys trying this. I don't see Marvel, DC, Another Universe Diamond, Mile High or any of the other really big guys seeking out new readers through advertising. No Dunc, I don't think that you or any of the other retailers are "stupid or lazy" I do however believe that there are a great number of retailers that are disenchanted; retailers that no longer buy what might sell, but only what they know will sell. Translation = X-men. Heck in my own comic book store I don't get to see a copy of "Hitman" unless I order it. I mean Hitman! Garth Ennis! And my retailer doesn't think he can sell even a couple extra books to people who didn't sign up for it. This is the unfortunate result of the past several years.
Now if the big guys like Marvel and Another Universe were to step forward and aggressively advertise then I think we would begin to see some turn around. All of which bring me to Von's point.



Von also discusses worries over where will all these new readers go to get their comic books. I'll answer this first because it is easier.

As sad as it may be I don't think we have to much to fear from an overflow of readers. With resources like the .com companies and the 3500 retailers that are out there I think the industry will have time to grow for the influx of new readers. As I said before, this is not an overnight fix and anyone that thinks so is not playing with a full deck. As for the other matter I disagree.
At the very least this needs to happen at the same time. Lots of things do need to happen, but all of them need to start happening now. To me, the advertising thing, although not a "just add water solution" will bring in the new readers faster than anything else will and can easily adapt to any new environment that the comic book industry evolves into.

Advertising does work. It has been proven on numerous occasions and there isn't a successful product based company out there that will tell you any different. My question to the big guys is “Why have you given up?”

That aside, Von mentioned many other things that need to be done. I have my own ideas, but what do the rest of you think?




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Dave Belmore
Ironhorse Comics
www.ironhorsecomics.com

Good point.
Roar! Let's do something!

And I'll just say this very quickly and then go again. I think we are on the verge of a dramatic change in the indusrty. I think we are about see a major shift in what is considered the mainstream. I t has happened before and I think it is about to happen again. So what does everybody think the next big genre will be? Slice-of-life? Fantasy? Sci-Fi? Crime? Romance? Horror?



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Dave Belmore
Ironhorse Comics
www.ironhorsecomics.com

I don't know that I've advertised specific comics; more often, I've advertised specific events, such as moving, grand-reopening, or sales. But here's the problem, as I see it. I have a store in a downtown tourist location. I have lots of relaxed, curious people coming in. They will occasionally even ask about comics. But 90% of the time, no matter what tack I take, I cannot convince a non-comic buyer into trying a comic. Hard sell, soft sell, discounted, "borrow it and see," and on and on. I know, from my experience at other parts of my store that I'm not a bad salesman. It's not me, its not the COMICS...it's the average citizen. Their eyes simply glaze whenever you start showing them comics.

With an opening, I can sometimes make a sale. An opening such as a major news story (NOT an ad), or a respected relative or friend recommending something. But a store clerk trying to cold sell to a non-comic buyer is very, very hard. Advertising to those people, by extension, is nearly impossible. Believe me, I haven't stopped trying. But it is much harder than comic readers think.

There has to be a healthy community of readers out there, each of them turning a friend onto a comic. Word of mouth is more important in comics than in most product. What I see on this board, and others, is suggestions -- a kind of common wisdom -- about how retailers could improve sales.

1.) Cheaper comics. Its been tried, many times. Besides most of us have quarter comics if thats really the problem. Sure, if publishers can produce a nice, well-written, well-drawn comic for a buck, I'd love it.

2.)Comics for kids. Again, its been tried. Even Disney couldn't make a go of it. I order every kid comic out there, and it fills one small rack that BOTH regular comic readers and civilians pass by. Archie comes closest, followed by the Simpsons.

3.) Cross-promotion with movies, or T.V. You would think this would work, but except for small spurts from the X-Men, Spawn, and Witchblade, and one big spurt from the first Batman movie, it never really has. One medium doesn't necessarily translate to sales in another medium, despite what apparently just about everyone thinks.

4.) Cleaner, neater, nicer stores. No argument here. But its hard to have a really fancy store when you aren't making much money. Even modest repairs and upkeep can stretch some comics shops' resources (and make it that much harder to buy the kid comics, womens comics, and independents everyone thinks we should carry.)

5.) Friendlier, more helpful clerks. Again, no argument. But I can usually tell within a minute or two if I'm talking to a real customer or not. I will expend all the energy I have every day trying to create just one new comic reader. (Still no excuse not to be polite.)

6.) Carry more independents, (or tradepaperbacks, or whatever.) I suspect that almost all retailers are interested in selling ANY title they think will sell. If you don't see a title, it might be because it DIDN'T sell! Every 2 years I order Cerebus for a 6 month stretch. Every 2 years I bag and backstock five or six issues of Cerebus that didn't sell.

7)Comics for women. Again, I try. Its very discouraging when most girls and women reject your efforts out-of-hand. I have a rack that I very carefully designed to appeal to women (Sandman, Calvin and Hobbes, Archie, Elfquest, Sailor Moon, Lenore, etc. etc. just about anything I can think of)...and more often than not, their comment is..."boy stuff..."

8.) Other obvious stuff you think we haven't tried. I can tell you that just about any comic retailer that has been around over the last 5 years has probably outperformed his peers, just to survive. We aren't going to ignore ANYTHING that we might think will work!

I'm not saying we shouldn't keep trying to do all of the above; energy, time, space and money willing. But most of us are indeed trying to do all these things, and it ain't easy. Again, the only way you will find out is if you open your own store, and put your own money at risk. After 18 years, I have the store the way I always wanted it to be. I can't afford to slamm up against brick walls that I've already slammed up against again and again. If it works, keep doing it. If it doesn't work, quit doing it, no matter what the "common wisdom" might say.

Actually, Dave, Hitman is a great example. I tried selling Hitman for years...I've had a set of #'s 1-5 on my wall since they came out. Preacher is my absolute favorite comic, and I've read everything that I can find that Ennis has done. But as a store, I don't order a copy of Hitman for the shelves. Every month I shave my budget to a realistic level, (say, 60% of what I optimistically think I can sell) and Hitman is one of the last cuts. Something has to give. There are thousands of items in the Preview each month that could sell on their own merits...but you can't sell all of them. Hell, you couldn't fit them into your store! It's a matter of making choices. I reserve a certain amount of my budget for whims or experiments, but I'd much rather try something new than try something I've already given a fair chance.

>>>>
How many times can you essentially waste thousands of dollars of your employer's money and still keep your job?<<

As many as it takes to save the industry. As many as it takes. If I spend all my time only watching my own back then something in front of me will just as easily take me out.<<

Individual companies are not in business "to save the industry." They are in business to make a profit for their owners. You want "to save the industry"? Fine. Trouble is, your version of "saving" it might be "ruining" it for someone else.

Back in the mid-50s, the major publishers "saved" the industry (from probably government interference and public abhorrence) with the Comics Code...but they "ruined" the industry for EC, Charles Biro and other publishers.

There won't be any money to make for their owners if there is no industry to make money on.

(sigh) I am not looking for anyone to throw away money and I most certainly don’t think that no one is trying. I am not looking at the guy down the street repairing the leak in his roof and saying
"You should be on TV!" These things are unreasonable and are more self-destructive than they are helpful.

What I am asking for is for the BIG GUYS to step forward with aggressive and repetitive
marketing techniques that will keep comic books out there in the mind of the general public. Of course the majority of their dollars should be spent on promotions where it will do the most good, but some funds should also be diverted into an investment for the future. One failed ad brought in
let's say a 5% increase in sales but that is all new readers! Over a long period of time that would become an astonishing number of new readers who are not only buying the book for the original advertisement, but also whatever else the found out they liked. Just Imagine what a successful ad would do? Should we really stop searching for that "just right" mix? If Rolling Stone is too expensive for this sort of effort then fine, but must be some way to promote towards the unfound audience that won't cripple us. Phillip, in your original post you stated some of the things your
store was doing to reach out to the non-comic buying audiance. I think these are great ideas and I think it is exactly the sort of thing that the big guys should be doing on a nation wide level.

All the points made here have some validity, but what I am experiencing here is an overwhelming defeatist attitude; "That's been tried and didn't work or It's too expensive" are all to frequently heard. How many times did Edison have to TRY before he got the light bulb to work, how many times do you suppose man TRIED to fly before the Wright brothers came along. Just because we
tried it once or even a hundred times and it didn’t work doesn’t mean it will never work.
Yes the stories could be better, yes we could use a new direction for the mainstream and yes it would help if all the stores were clean and friendly, but none of that will mean squat without promotion! If you don't tell anybody, how will they find out? Sadly we are still fighting to overcome a negative reputation and sitting in our corners, sulking and saying "damn it we're
good, we're really trying" isn't going to accomplish anything.

Someone needs to take the lead, someone needs to set an example that the public at large can see.This is why I look towards the big guys (Marvel, DC, Image, Another Universe,NextPlanetOver.com, Diamond) these people need to start screaming, yelling and stomping their feet and makeing as much noise as they can. They have the bank roll to do it lounder than any one of us can. The rest of us? No we don't sit back and let them do all the work. We follow up and do what has been discussed time and time again. Get friends into the industry, hand out GOOD comics at Halloween, do as much noise making as we can and together we can bring this industry back up onto its feet.

BTW KUDOS to Another Universe for running a full page ad in MAXIUM magazine in their
X-chicks issue. Ya know Marvel is surprised the sales of the comic book didn't rise dramatically after the movie came out. I’m not surprised at all. Just about every other person I got into a conversation about the movie with didn't even realize it was based on a comic book. They thought it was based on a TV show. They didn’t even mention it in the ads for the toys of the movie.

Okay. You know what guys? You’re right. yup every last word of it. I am completely worng and the situation is completly hopless. Every thing has been tried to its fullest extent and none of it worked or ever will work. We may well pack it up and wait until the current crop of readers fades away, cause once their gone; that’s it. Porky Pig just said "That’s all folks! Frankly, I’m glad I have 20 years worth of comics to keep me entertained cause the way things are headed, it doesn’t look like I’ll be reading any new ones when I’m 60.

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Dave Belmore
Ironhorse Comics
www.ironhorsecomics.com

[This message has been edited by Dave Belmore (edited 09-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Belmore (edited 09-06-2000).]

I don't know but from what I've seen is that everyone is saying local or even state efforts won't work and for the most part everyone is correct on that tiny of a level it is inconcievable that it would make a dent in the general state of the industry.

THE INDUSTRY IS NOT A STATE LEVEL PRODUCT!!

Most of you are proposing something on the level in which you are attacking a battleship, with a twig...it won't happen EVER!

Most of the local people can do what they want to but they will NEVER make any change in the total sum of the industry...the industry's major players are the ones who need to do the advertising, because if they don't then they are the ones killing all of us.

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Reality. Never touch the stuff myself, personally.

Oooops
Sorry. Tried to edit a previous post, hit the wrong one posted it and ah hell you get the idea

[This message has been edited by Dave Belmore (edited 09-06-2000).]

A good discussion, and *very* good points by Dave Bellmore. I have also encountered this amazing defeatist attitude in starting up our comic book festival.

Someone said, and I paraphrase, "Advertising does not work", possibly implying that it just doesn't work for the comic book industry. Bullshit! Advertising absolutely does work, for this or any other industry. I think somebody even indicated that advertising was akin to just wasting your money. Advertising and marketing in general is your *most* important concern in a successful business. More important than a good product, more important than customer service, although both of those are important parts of your marketing, you can actually get by without them if you spend enough on advertising. Anybody ever seen a completely horrible movie that actually made millions of dollars profit. And how about that customer service you get at the movie theater, do they actually give those soda jerks lessons in moving slow, or what? And yet, people go back again and again and again. Why? Because the advertisers tell them to.

I'll address Dunc's comments quickly, since he conveniently numbered them



Right, but you and most others have quit doing *anything*. I agree completely, ignore the so-called wisdom that you quoted up there. BUT, do something different rather than nothing at all.

Remember, it is not enough just to bust your ass working, because I know good and well that you do. If something is not working that you and many others thing should, you have to *find out why*. Then you have to find out what *does* work. Like Joe Field said in last month’s Comics Retailer, research & innovation.

I apologize ranting, but I was appalled by the defeatist and cynical attitude expressed by a number of posters. And, as I mentioned at the beginning, comicon.com is not the only place I have run into this. As we are starting a brand new comic book show for the huge state of Texas, I have run into a truly deep and abiding cynicism and complete fear of innovation or of even attempting to do anything new and different to support the industry.

Whew! I know it may not sound like it, but I am actually quite optimistic about the industry. Right now, the one main thing that we need to beat is the negative attitude. Once we do that, we can move onto the other issues.

(Sorry for the multiple edits, I’m still working out this whole quoting thing.)

Sincerely,


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James Echols
Founder - UncommonCon, www.uncommoncon.com
Business Coach, Uncommon Solutions

[This message has been edited by UncommonCon (edited 09-06-2000).]