I was hoping I could get some feedback on this topic. Pardon, please, that it's nothing new.

Stuart Moore mentioned that the magazine market was pretty tight right now, and I would imagine the comic market is the same.

Also discussed was that $6-10 is too much to pay for a 64-80 page comic. At the same time, many retailers and potential vendors don't carry comics because they take up a lot of space with very little return on their investment.

I haven't been able to buy comics for years-- I live in a small town where no one sells them. In any neighboring cities-- 60 miles away and further-- if you can find a comic-shop, comics are sold subscription only-- you have to reserve them in advance because it costs too much for the store to buy copies it might not be able to sell.

Why doesn't Marvel cut back to about a dozen titles of 64-80 pages? With strong material at a higher price-point, and fewer titles, everyone could win:

Briefly, here's what I mean:

Consider these 12 proposed titles as 64 pages of all-new material, by the current (or recent) creative teams:

1. The FANTASTIC FOUR
--plus
The Silver Surfer
--and
The Inhumans

2. The AMAZING SPIDER-MAN
(combining all current titles into one)

3. MARVEL COMICS
Starring the Avengers
--plus
a Spider-Man Team-up

4. JOURNEY into MYSTERY
Starring Thor
--plus
(?)

5. The X-MEN
(Incorporating all titles into one)

6. SAVAGE TALES
The Black Panther
--plus
Wolverine
--and
Ka-Zar

7. TALES to ASTONISH!
The Incredible Hulk
--plus
The Sub-Mariner
--and
rotating: Ant-Man and the Wasp with Captain Marvel and a sci-fi feature, like "Guardians of the Galaxy".
This title could also occasionally substitute one or more of thes features for "The Defenders."

8. STRANGE TALES
Dr. Strange
--plus
SHIELD
--and
A Human Torch Team-up
--also
The (medieval) Black Night

9. TALES of SUSPENSE
Captain America
--and
The Invincible Iron Man
--plus
The Black Widow

10. AMAZING ADVENTURES
Daredevil
--and
The Thunderbolts

Each title could have three 20-page features, then you might reserve four pages in each issue to feature a short story by a big-name cartoonist not usually seen in a Marvel comic.

To this very short line of books, I would also add (with maybe one or two others of various genres):

11. OUR LOVE STORY
featuring a revived version of Millie the Model, a new Patsy Walker...
--plus, short romance stories featuring your regular characters-- Peter Parker, Steve Rogers, Sue Storm, etc-- done by their regular creative teams. This would create a title that appealed to readers of non-super-hero comics that still tied back into the "Marvel Universe."

I went through the trouble of listing the individual titles so that you could grasp how "strong" the material would be.
I specifically chose the old "retro" titles to group the series under. Just because the titles might have an appeal to the old dudes out there (of which I am one), doesn't mean the material in them has to be.
Yes, the price per book would be high, but every title would carry a line-up that had a powerful appeal to the readers you have right now. Instead of diluting the strength of a powerful lead feature by a popular creative team with material of lesser desirability, Marvel has a large enough stable of characters with a broad range of appeal that they could easily fill ten titles with nothing but fairly major characters.
Plus, by having such a small set of titles, you'd save money: Covers are the most expensive part of printing, and their price remains constant no matter the page-count.
This would revitalize the concept of a "Marvel Checklist," because with such a relatively small number of titles, you could more realistically push for readers to "collect 'em all!"
Finally, by having a small number of highly desirable comics-- not a loser in the bunch-- each with a higher price-point, you could more easily put this entire line into more markets. You couldn't possibly get a newstand to carry every title you currently publish. But if you only had 10-12 titles TOTAL, then it's very easy to see that you might get them all carried everywhere.

I posted this on another thread, in another forum, but it might have been a 'dead topic,' and I really want some feedback, so I hope no one minds be bringing it over here (where it fits better, anyway).

carlton, your idea sounds very similar to what i suggested here , so obviously i like it.

Carlton:

The only answer anyone can give to your question is "maybe." What you are suggesting is that Marvel (and implicitly others) should re-form their business model of the last 50+ years to resemble comics publishing it its earliest US incarnation.

It might work, but "might" is a little vague for such a radical plan.

The immediate issues that I see are:

1) Marvel's experiment with the "Universe" titles doesn't seem to have met with much success. They were just the type of books you envision with several recent stories in a thick book, priced at $4.99 (and later $3.99.) The fact that they were reprinting material that was paid for by the regular titles' sales made them cheaper that what you suggest and the still didn't make it.

2) There just aren't enough newsstands anymore to support comics sales. Comics on newsstands are of necessity a sideline, because of their relative lack of appeal to most customers. You need to put them in a lot of locations to make an impression. There just aren't enough locations to do that.

3) The potential for disaster in a change like this makes it a bigger risk than you can expect Marvel to take.

[This message has been edited by Jim Hanley (edited 02-12-2001).]

Jim:
"The fact that they were reprinting material that was paid for by the regular titles' sales made them cheaper that what you suggest and the still didn't make it."

Reprinting material that was bad in the first place is not going to get people to buy the stuff.

Thanks for replying, Mr. Hanley. Because of your experience, I always like reading what you have to say.

When I say "newstand" I mean grocery stores, convenience stores, drug stores, perhaps even toy stores.

The plain fact of the matter is, I live in a part of the country where comics simply aren't available. They aren't available for two reasons: No one makes any money by carrying what is available through the news and magazine distributors, and that comic-shops can't stay open in this region.

The way comics are distributed and sold in this country is ridiculous. Perhaps in your part of the country, comic-shops make sense. Here, they don't. They are the most incredibly BAD way to sell comics the mind could conceive.

I'm thinking Marvel is in such a bad position, that they are going to have to make some drastic changes anyway.

As far as I can tell, comics stores make sense on 33rd Street between 5th & Broadway (and to a lesser extent on New Dorp Lane in Staten Island.)

My problem with newsstands is strictly a matter of lack of same. The thing about newsstands was that they were ubiquitous and kids shopped there by themselves. Kids don't shop anywhere by themselves anymore. Hence the difficulty in marketing things to them that requires examination and intimate knowledge of which ones they have, etc.

Kurt Busiek in an interview talked about the phonebook-thick Japanese comics and how American publishers might try to emulate them.

I think it might be a nice experiment, at the very least; Marvel or DC wouldn't lose that much trying it out for one or two attempts: a 300-page comic on cheap paper, maybe consisting of 50-75% reprints, black and white, with a relatively low cover price.

To head some criticism off at the pass, I know this isn't Japan and that paper costs, creative costs, etc., aren't the same, but like I said, I think it would be good to experiment with.

Does anyone know how well Marvel's b&w Ultimate books have sold? What I'm talking about would be very similar in format to those. I have two of the Spider-Man volumes and I'm crazy about them.

"1) Marvel's experiment with the "Universe" titles doesn't seem to have met with much success..."

Yeah, but don't you think that's more of a result of Marvel not fulling committing to the idea of doing thicker comics? I mean, if they really changed their entire line and consolidated titles, wouldn't it merge the audiences together? Wouldn't merging Thor, Iron Man, the Hulk, etc. under an Avengers imprint make the circulation go up and thus, give Marvel mor viability in other markets and access to more fans?

"2) There just aren't enough newsstands anymore to support comics sales. Comics on newsstands are of necessity a sideline, because of their relative lack of appeal to most customers. You need to put them in a lot of locations to make an impression. There just aren't enough locations to do that."

I agree, to some extent. However, I think if Marvel took the approach of a magazine publisher with each title; with its ultimate goal of letting advertising and circulation support it; they could afford to branch off into Bordes, Barnes & Noble, etc.

"3) The potential for disaster in a change like this makes it a bigger risk than you can expect Marvel to take."

I guess that depends on just how bad they're bleeding, but--- I don't know. They've already got their printing costs so low, all they need to do is justify a high cover price. I mean, how could they NOT make money on a 86 page book that only costs them 10 cents to print?

I think the answer must be in their overhead. They need to abandon their high-priced offices, slash the non-talent staff and start offering creators a cut in exchange for lower page rates (if any of them will even take that anymore).

I just don't see how the 26 page comic can continue to survive with such an outrageous cover price. I mean, Jeez, my boys at Kenzer sometimes swell their comic to 72 pages and don't raise the $2.95 cover price.

-Tony D
SJRP http://www.netcom.com/~thefix/sjrp.html

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Not necessarily. Lots of people buy only Avengers but not Thor, Iron Man, etc. (as a look at their relative circulations shows). Would those folks now paying $2.25 for a monthly dose of Avengers be willing to pay $4.95 (or higher) for an Avengers story and three or four other stories they aren't going to read anyway? I wouldn't count on it. (There's a reason Ace books abandoned the "Ace Doubles" line back in the '60s, gang.)



One of the major complaints I hear from comics fans is that there are too many ads in the things now (when they are approximately 40% ads). To be even break-even in an ad-supported format, comics would have to be 50% ads and to be really profitable, 60%. That means (if you're combining several titles together) a package of some 80-100 story pages and another 100 or so (at least) pages of ads.

Oh--and the advertisers won't stand for you bundling all the ad pages in between stories. They want their ads to be opposite editorial, usually on the right hand page if they can insist on it. Look at major magazines to see how it works.

"One of the major complaints I hear from comics fans is that there are too many ads in the things now..."

The whole point is, to get your circulation up so you can charge $50,000 an ad, not $5000 for ten ads.

And if you want to talk about ads, look at Maxium. No one cares about all the ads in that and its probably 60-70% ads. Comic fans won't complain when you have a $2.95 cover price for a 250 page book, even if 150 pages are ads.

The point is, to make the stories bigger and the cover price more viable. You just can't justify 22 pages for $2.95. No matter WHAT is on the page. It's not worth it. Not Frank Miller, not Jeff Smith, not Dave Sim, not Todd McFarlane--- NO ONE is worth $2.95 for 22 pages. That is the problem that is not being addressed.

If major publishers, especially Image, returned to newspaper print, which costs only pennies a page, the could easily double the size of their comics without raising the price. Unfortunately, I believe the current formula for overhead wouldn't cover that. The answer then is to come up with something else to the fill the pages. Prose with some illustrations, reprints, back up stories, fan art--- SOMEBODY has to make an effort towards making $2.95 worth it.

There is a balance between quality and quantity. Everyone in this business is trying to arrogantly assert that they have enough quality to justify their cover price. While this made make hardcore fans happy, the fringe fans and those on the outside can't get past the simple fact that they can rent a 2 hour video for the same price as a comic book.

At least, with the promise of QUANTITY (ie 100's of pages) you could lure fans back because the product would feel like you got something for your money. Spending $12 for four comics, to me, does not feel justifiable. Especially when I know that most major publishers pay less than 5 cents to have their books printed.

Hell, most of my comics are 28-34 pages and I don't have ANY money. And, I still manage to under cut the fairly standard $2.95 cover price.

Contrary to popular belief, MOST fans don't give a rat's ass about the paper quality. When it comes right down to it, fans are being pushed out of this medium because finding their comics is too hard and purchasing them costs WAY too much money.

-Tony D
SJRP http://www.netcom.com/~thefix/sjrp.html
Buy The Travelers
Buy Jersey Devil
Buy my new novel and comic book, THE FIX

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