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#211802 - 12/18/98 03:28 AM Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Anonymous
Unregistered


This isn't entirely on topic for the creating comics section, but I've put up some rough scans of eleven nudes drawn from the live model in charcoal.

Along with the usual petty motivations of vanity, greed and exhibitionistic masochism, I've another reason for doing this. I've gotten tired of the sceptical expression I see when I recommend life-drawing to someone whose portfolio I'm critiquing. With any luck, this will help change the perception an increasing number of young artists seem to have, that drawing the living figure is something you might do in one or two freshman art classes before moving on to working from imagination, photography or "poser" software.

I believe there's something to be gained from the living, breathing presence of the model, that photogaphic reference, for all its convenience and flexibility, can't match. The drawing is often warmer and more sympathetic to the quirks of light and gravity and human flesh, and will reflect the artist's reactions to the vital person he or she is drawing, not just the patterns of highlight and shadow. And the artist comes away with a storehouse of new information that will enrich later work executed from imagination or photo-reference

Much of the worth of these drawings is, of course, lost when you shrink down the charcoal originals on a photocopier, then scan them at 72 dpi for viewing on a computer monitor, but with any luck, some of the spirit of the originals will still come through.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/lifedrawingindex.html

Steve Lieber

------------------
My web page: www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/
WHITEOUT #4 now in stores
Preview of WHITEOUT #1 at http://www.easystreet.com/~kodiak/Whiteout.html

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#211803 - 12/22/98 12:00 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
MarkBadger Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/25/98
Posts: 22
Hi Steve,
Life drawing yeah, that's pretty off topic for a creating comics section allright. Nice pics though, were they all twenty minute sessions or longer poses? Funny how they have some kind of shaggy Kubert type realism in them, in the feet and hands.
Actually if I was advising young people to get into comics I would suggest tracing photos instead of life drawing. I think editors are buying a kinda of stiff tight drawing these days and life drawing just doeswn't give them that artificial look comic book editors like.
Anyways I was reading a book by Shamus Culhane on animation and he recommended Nicoladies book on drawing for creating quick instant sketches. Dug thru the piles of books at home and couldn't find it. I read it in art school but that was a looooonng time ago. Do you have any long lost memories of what his theory of quick gesture figures was?
Is it the ball head and a line of movement thing or something else?

OT as you can get I geuss

Mark Badger
www.lemoncustard.com

cyber comics to weird to print

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#211804 - 12/22/98 12:00 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
MarkBadger Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/25/98
Posts: 22
Hi Steve,
Life drawing yeah, that's pretty off topic for a creating comics section allright. Nice pics though, were they all twenty minute sessions or longer poses? Funny how they have some kind of shaggy Kubert type realism in them, in the feet and hands.
Actually if I was advising young people to get into comics I would suggest tracing photos instead of life drawing. I think editors are buying a kinda of stiff tight drawing these days and life drawing just doeswn't give them that artificial look comic book editors like.
Anyways I was reading a book by Shamus Culhane on animation and he recommended Nicoladies book on drawing for creating quick instant sketches. Dug thru the piles of books at home and couldn't find it. I read it in art school but that was a looooonng time ago. Do you have any long lost memories of what his theory of quick gesture figures was?
Is it the ball head and a line of movement thing or something else?

OT as you can get I geuss

Mark Badger
www.lemoncustard.com

cyber comics to weird to print

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#211805 - 12/23/98 03:06 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Anonymous
Unregistered


The poses were ususally about half an hour, although a couple are only five minutes.

I've never gotten around to picking up "The Natural Way to Draw." Surprizing really considering what a maniac collector I am when it comes to how-to-draw books.

I'm actually kind of sorry the Kubert influence is still visible. That's something I'm trying to shake off. Having sat next to him week after week in the evening extra-curricular life-drawing sessions had a really powerful impact on me, but I want to get to the point where people won't be able to immediately spot JK in my drawing.

SL

------------------
My web page: www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/
Preview of WHITEOUT #1 at www.easystreet.com/~kodiak/Whiteout.html
WHITEOUT #4 now in stores. An on-going follow-up series is in the works.

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#211806 - 12/26/98 12:12 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Marshall M Dillon Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/98
Posts: 88
Loc: Michigan
Hi, this is Marshall's friend Josh Ellingson.
I coudn't agree more with Steve's opinion that life-drawing is important. Photo references are great for quick reference but there is a depth that is lost without the understanding of REAL light, shadow, and weight. Many young artists don't get the oportunity to draw nudes or feel weird doing so. I used to think it was kind of pointless for really cartoony artists to draw from life. Then I realized, after seeing the improvements life-drawing was having on my work, that in order to master abstraction of the human form, you have to know what the human form really looks like. Anyway, right-on Steve. Cool drawings too! See ya.

-Josh Ellingson
ninjaduck@hotmail.com

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#211807 - 12/30/98 11:43 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Marshall M Dillon Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/98
Posts: 88
Loc: Michigan
Hey guys.

This is Marshall Dillon.. NOT JOSH....

Well, Steve is a GREAT artist.. Do doubts!..

Say Steve, I wanted to get your opinion of my color work at mid-Ohio, but you weren't around when I came buy(with my work.

I did, However, stop buy (without it) and chat with you some.(I was the guy with the Band-Aid on his forehead-That's right.. The zit story)

Well, I was wondering what your "touring" schedual might look like for the comming year, so I can get your opinion on my work.

As well, any chance of you holding Life drawing classes?? Your "Lifes" kick, and I'd like to learn from you...

All that said.. Do you live in Michigan? I thought you did at one time.....


Ramble..ramble...

Chat later

Marshall M. Dillon

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#211808 - 12/31/98 03:07 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Anonymous
Unregistered


I keep a list of conventions I plan to attend on my web page at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/appearances.html The only confirmed ones (read this as the only ones that I've bought a plne ticket for) are New Orleans and Orlando, but its likely I'll be at most of the others.

I'm not in Michigan anymore. I'm in Portland, Oregon. Motor-City is still on my convention list though, in the spring at least.

As for teaching, I've been taking on some students up here, but nothing formal. I did run a life drawing seminar at Heroes Con in Charlotte, along with Scott Hampton, Jeff Parker and Ray Lago, and I'd enjoy repeating that again sometime.

------------------
My web page: www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/
Preview of WHITEOUT #1 at www.easystreet.com/~kodiak/Whiteout.html
WHITEOUT #4 now in stores. An on-going follow-up series is in the works.

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#211809 - 01/02/99 05:40 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've added another dozen images to my life drawing gallery at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/lifedrawingindex.html .

And thanks to some helpful advice from a number of samaritans, I've been able to halve the image size (and thus the load time) for the entire gallery.

Lieber

(Steve C: If you're lurking, and would prefer I didn't put these pointers here, let me know.)

------------------
My web page: www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/
Preview of WHITEOUT #1 at www.easystreet.com/~kodiak/Whiteout.html
WHITEOUT #4 now in stores. An on-going follow-up series is in the works.

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#211810 - 01/13/99 09:33 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Skinshark Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/99
Posts: 53
Loc: Athens, Georgia
Sorry Mark I don't agree with you telling young people to start tracing from photographs. It may lend itself to speeding you along to meet a deadline but it's a bad way to build your art skills. You need a strong foundation before you start taking up crutches and improvising. If you start off from the outset to trace that means you're only as good as your reference. I know people who suffer from a certain inconsistency because they have to pull through where there is no reference causing a real break up in the art and story. Sure you can photograph what you need but if you can't draw correctly to begin with it's going to show. That of course depends on the "style" you're shooting for. I think you have to come along way though to make your lack of foundation look like a convincing style. That of course is my humble opinion, with all due respects.
_________________________
-S!

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#211811 - 01/14/99 03:13 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
marcel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 55
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Nice drawings Steve. I'd agree with you that life drawing is important, but I'd also add that one of the main reasons that it is important is because it refines your ability to see/perceive (in general). Otherwise you'll always be stuck drawing things based on (dim) preconceptions rather than on (much more vibrant) perceptions.



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--
Marcel Guldemond
Aporia Press
http:\\aporia.brainmade.com
_________________________
--
Marcel Guldemond
Aporia Press
http://aporia.brainmade.com/

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#211812 - 01/14/99 10:12 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
BClayMoore Offline
Member

Registered: 01/05/99
Posts: 90
Loc: Kansas City, KS
Nicolaides emphasizes getting the feel of the model, and using a continuous line to get the gesture down, encapsulating the entire pose with the initial sketch. Start with the action, the point where the action begins, and begin letting the pencil roam in a quick, continuous flow. It's almost like an automatic writing kind of thing, relying on instinct, the way he describes it. Above all, avoid following edges...the key is to capture the point of action. It's not a question of creating a realistic quick sketch, it's a matter of capturing the essence of the gesture.

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#211813 - 01/15/99 01:19 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Matthew High Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/98
Posts: 158
I'm actually really great at working from a model. The more life drawing I do, the better and quicker I seem to get.

Unfortunately, this seems to do little, right now, for any imagined poses.

I've have a tremendous amount of success, though, using references for constructing compositions. But, I feel like it is becoming a crutch and I should begin now, to work away from using too many references.

Any opinions on this... I am definitely going to continue to do the life drawing. But, do the references become a crutch? Should I limp without them... or is this how it goes for most people?

Robert
GraphicNovels.com

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#211814 - 01/15/99 04:49 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Bradly E Peterson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 322
Loc: Fort Worth, Tx USA
Sterling Publishing is soliciting for "FIGURE DRAWING WITHOUT A MODEL" by Ron Tiner in the current Previews (product ships in March 1999).

It's on page 307 of the catalog in the BOOKS section. It's 160 Pgs, Partial color for $17.95

Also shipping in March is Sterling Publishing's "Drawing Human Anatomy" by Giovanni Civardi, in B&W, 88 pgs for $14.95

Although, it's a bit off-topic, Sterling Publishing is also shipping "Drawing In Perspective" Hard cover by Oliver Striegel in Full color, 78 pgs for $19.95.

Oh, and all the books are in 8" X 11" format.
Hope that helps.

PS: I'm ordering the first two...

------------------
Bradly E. Peterson
Psychodrama Press
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"
(Albert Einstein)
http://www.fastlane.net/homepages/drama/
_________________________
Bradly E. Peterson
Psychodrama Press
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"
(Albert Einstein)
www.fastlane.net/homepages/drama/

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#211815 - 01/18/99 09:16 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
MarkBadger Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/25/98
Posts: 22
Robert wrote>> I'm actually really great at working from a model... Any opinions on this... I am definitely going to continue to do the life
drawing. But, do the references become a crutch? Should I limp
without them... or is this how it goes for most people?


My standard thought on drawing is check out Drawing Lessons from the Old masters by Robert beverly Hale. he's really good at applying figure drawing to constructing figures for composition. Bestest book on drawing every done.

Time makes everyone better, keep doing life drawing there is no substitute.

As fer the tracing photos issue, there is a difference between what sells and what good comics are. And certainly between what I think good comics are and what an editor thinks good comics are. If ya wanna work at marvel/DC/Dark Horse you have to impress an editor first. Thats what tracing photos are for.
I suspect most editors working at those companies have little knowledge outside what they learned at the company about art. So the more swipes you give them the better off you'll be.

cynical as ever,
Mark Badger
www.lemoncustard.com

cyber comics to weird to print

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#211816 - 01/19/99 12:27 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Skinshark Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/99
Posts: 53
Loc: Athens, Georgia
At a Chicago Comicon a couple of years back I had the utmost pleasure to look through one of Steve Rude's sketchbooks. I was immobilized by his figure studies and poses and painting and ink...you get the idea. It was brilliant to say the very least.

I had asked him if he was able to get live models to pose for him for some of the shots. He said he mostly used himself standing in front of a mirror, drawing with a free hand if he could. Ever since then I've used handheld mirrors to get the right expressions or mirrors in the bathroom for full body poses. It's not easy but if you can do it it does help quite a bit.

I also use very articulated action figures, like the Ultimate Soldier. You can pose these badboys, light them, set them on fire..whatever. And they even have female officers as well, though not easy to find.

Again a few ideas that may help you along the way. Books only take you so far, time and training do the rest.

Good Luck!
_________________________
-S!

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#211817 - 01/19/99 03:01 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
savage Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/98
Posts: 1007
Loc: Minneapolis,MN USA
First- those are nice charcoal drawings. I've never really enjoyed working in charcoal...unless I was planning to hit it with ink, paint and/or pastels afterward. It's a tool you almost have to work pretty large to use and I like the small picture thing most of the time. (You should see the size of most of my paintings from art school....I drove my instructor crazy. He prefered big pictures.) However, when ever I do spend time with charcoal and a model my drawing seems to get better. Something you've been fighting with for a month suddenly falls into place and that sort of thing. How big are the originals, by the way?

Secondly- Life drawing is as close to a best friend you are going to have. It teaches you weight and structure. However, there are ways to do it wrong. This is just my opinion from when I first learned how to draw. Drawing exactly what you see did nothing for me initially. Sure the pictures were more exact, but they still missed something. The one day an art instructor I had gave an assignment which gave me a clue to what was wrong. He told us to draw the model from 45 degrees off of where we were standing. Boy did that drawing stink...I was missing the structural understanding necessary to finish the drawing.

I had locked myself into the two dimensional space of the paper's surface and the apparent two dimensionality of percieved reality.

What I'm saying is that drawing from life is a good thing as long as you occasionally study the structure of what you're drawing and not just the surface.

Nowadays I still suck, but I'm getting better. I think...



------------------
Justin Savage
President/Editor/Web-bozo
Sabre's Edge
http://www.sabresedge.com
_________________________
Justin Savage
President/Editor/Web-bozo
www.sabresedge.com

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#211818 - 01/22/99 01:27 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry for disppearing on my own thread there folks. My computer went kaflooey. It's back and so am I.

To answer Justin's questions about how big the drawings are, I tend to draw models close to the size that I see them. This means that the drawing is the size it would be if I was tracing the image on a piece of glass through which I was viewing the model, plus maybe ten or twenty percent to give me some room to swing my arm. The closer I am to the model, the bigger the drawing. If I work much bigger than that I find that I have to conciously dope out proportions, rather than being able to rely on instinct. This approach comes straight from Robert Fawcett's "On the Art of Drawing," about which I've raved on this very board.

In practice this means that the drawings never get over 14 by 17, and often fit neatly onto 11 by 14 paper. I use a fairly hard charcoal pencil for most of the drawing. Sometimes I rough things in with whatever filth remains on the paper stumps that lurk around the bottom of my art bin. Often I'll go in at the end with some juicy vine charcoal or black conte to lay in the really dense areas of darkness.

My chief goals in life drawing are to keep my eyes fresh and open to what people actually look like. Sheer enjoyment plays a part too, as does my continuing aspiration to suck less tomorrow than I do today.

Skinshark- it isn't always clear, but Mark was indulging in bitter, bitter sarcasm with his photo advice. In purely practical terms, I'm sad to say, he might be right. When I go over someone's portfolio at a convention, I often split my advice between "what you should do to get better," and "what you should do to get a job."

Robert: At the Kubert school our life drawing teacher, Ben Ruiz (who had been a Burne Hogarth pupil sometime after WW2) taught us that the key to drawing the figure from imagination is memorizing a series of simple three-dimensional shapes. These shapes, which were quite precise, serve as a simple way to orient bony land marks in constructing a skeleton, to which you can then attach muscles, fatty tissues and skin. If you want a short cut, put down an action line or simple gesture drawing. Divide it into the rough proportions of your model sheet, then build the figure as a group of tubes and boxes going forward and backward in space. Once you have a decent mannequin constructed, the rest is just drapery. (Assuming you're working with clothed figures.) Given time, you will begin to find subtleties from your life drawing and studies of photos appearing in your constructions.

I know this is almost insultingly didactic, and I apologize for that, but there isn't much more to drawing from imagination, except for the part that requires fucking up a couple thousand times until you get the hang of it.

Steve Lieber

------------------
My web page: www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8914/
Preview of WHITEOUT #1 at www.easystreet.com/~kodiak/Whiteout.html
WHITEOUT #4 now in stores. An on-going follow-up series is in the works.

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#211819 - 11/20/00 09:11 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Steve Lieber Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/00
Posts: 296
Loc: Portland, OR
Why start a new thread when there's a pefectly good ancient one still floating around the archives. I've added some new nudes to my life drawing gallery.

The new stuff starts here: http://www.unrewarding.com/steve/ld31.html

Or review the whole megillah starting here:
http://unrewarding.com/steve/lifedrawingindex.html

------------------
http://www.unrewarding.com/steve The acclaimed graphic novel WHITEOUT, my life-drawing gallery and more.
_________________________
Me | Periscope |UNDERGROUND the comic | Whiteout |Twitter

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#211820 - 11/20/00 10:16 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
savage Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/98
Posts: 1007
Loc: Minneapolis,MN USA
These look great. Looks like you are either scanning the originals now or shooting them. Do you have a local life drawing co-op that you go to?

Anyway...cool beans.



------------------
Justin Savage
President/Editor/Web-bozo
www.sabresedge.com
_________________________
Justin Savage
President/Editor/Web-bozo
www.sabresedge.com

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#211821 - 11/21/00 01:41 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Steve Lieber Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/00
Posts: 296
Loc: Portland, OR
Scanning the originals. And there's a studio near my home that offers open life sessions.



------------------
http://www.unrewarding.com/steve The acclaimed graphic novel WHITEOUT, my life-drawing gallery and more.
_________________________
Me | Periscope |UNDERGROUND the comic | Whiteout |Twitter

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#211822 - 11/21/00 05:36 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Jeff Zugale Offline
Member

Registered: 12/06/98
Posts: 1806
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
WOW, Steve... Wow. Just... wow. Gorgeous. This work looks like it should be in Hale's book. Outstanding. I'm going to learn a lot just from studying these wonderful drawings!

------------------
Jeff Zugale
Pagan City Comics
www.pagancity.com
_________________________
Jeff Zugale www.jeffzugale.com/
My "Just A Bit Off..." webcomic

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#211823 - 11/22/00 03:49 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
V.Shane Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/00
Posts: 6
Hey I actually found my full original copy of Andrew Loomis' anatomy book, I grew up with this thing. Great reference. I find I do better life studies in a paste medium like oils, ala-prima, you can create the plethora of light shadow and depth in one swoop, getting that Frazetta feel to composition. I used to plan out my comic art, now I just paint the scenes (quickley) then draw from that...odd process huh?
Well it helps create movement in my line drawing.
Great work by the way!....Mr Lieber [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

V.Shane
Infinite Brush Studio http://infinitebrush.tripod.com/Index.htm
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#211824 - 11/22/00 01:40 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Jeff Zugale Offline
Member

Registered: 12/06/98
Posts: 1806
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Hey, that's a pretty novel approach, V! I like it... too bad I'm such a lousy painter LOL! Argh, and I'd really really like to get a copy of the Loomis book of sheer genius. I've only glimpsed copies. You'd think they'd get it back in print fachrissake, with all us scribblers pretty much requiring it...

------------------
Jeff Zugale
Pagan City Comics
www.pagancity.com
_________________________
Jeff Zugale www.jeffzugale.com/
My "Just A Bit Off..." webcomic

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#211825 - 11/22/00 04:27 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Brad Simpson Offline
Member

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 559
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Jeff,

I don't know if this is something that might interest you, but the new Bud Plant catalogue that came in todays mail has a 2-vol. set of Loomis books in it. They're called Figures in Action and Heads 2. They're on pg. 112 of the catalogue, and you can, I presume, also find them on the BP website.
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http://www.enormouspublications.com

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#211826 - 11/24/00 12:30 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Captain Retard! Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/00
Posts: 259
Loc: Los Angeles, California, USA.
Speaking of Loomis, I was surprised to learn that all his book are still in print... in Japan! Why they don't reprint them here is a mystery to me.

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#211827 - 11/27/00 06:58 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Jeff Zugale Offline
Member

Registered: 12/06/98
Posts: 1806
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
EXCELLENT! I have a good buddy in Japan, I'll have him pick them up for me. I guess they don't have to be in English...

------------------
Jeff Zugale
Pagan City Comics
www.pagancity.com
_________________________
Jeff Zugale www.jeffzugale.com/
My "Just A Bit Off..." webcomic

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#211828 - 11/30/00 07:21 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Captain Retard! Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/00
Posts: 259
Loc: Los Angeles, California, USA.
Might be a bit hard to understand if you're planning to score a copy of 'Creative Illustration'.

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#211829 - 12/06/00 09:47 AM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Captain Retard! Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/00
Posts: 259
Loc: Los Angeles, California, USA.
Loomis' "Figure drawing for all it's worth"... in japanese: http://www.tiara.cc/%7Eyuks/studio/book/figure_drawing.html

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#211830 - 12/09/00 11:19 PM Re: Lieber's web gallery of life-drawing
Steve Lieber Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/00
Posts: 296
Loc: Portland, OR
Rather than keep fielding emails about the prices of the life drawings, I've priced the newer pieces, starting with http://unrewarding.com/steve/ld30.html

Thanks for your interest everyone.



------------------
http://www.unrewarding.com/steve The acclaimed graphic novel WHITEOUT, my life-drawing gallery and more.
_________________________
Me | Periscope |UNDERGROUND the comic | Whiteout |Twitter

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