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#23516 - 07/12/07 10:19 AM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Quote:
Originally posted by aric shapiro:
Joe, it is unlikely that I will start a thread on JB commissions, but if you are curious as to the ones I mentioned, I can provide links.
That'd be great, thanks!

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#23517 - 07/12/07 10:31 AM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
aric shapiro Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 304
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#23518 - 07/12/07 10:33 AM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.:
"Back to form."
After that I stopped reading...And that's the TRUTH.
That made me laugh outloud, at my desk. Hilarious.

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#23519 - 07/12/07 11:40 AM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
Amazing. Some just can't face reality.
Use words like "sheer bulk" & "endless scans", among other words that attempt to make things SEEM worse than they are. That's my point & you (Netrigan) prove it well with more exaggerated "examples"...
Like..."Nicknames are destroying comics", JB never used the word "destroy", but you use it because it's over-the-top.
It goes on & on.
Once more, for the purposefully obtuse...I do NOT accuse anyone of creating lies. Many, though not all, of these Bad Byrne stories are EXAGGERATED.
I do NOT have to site examples because they are obvious to anyone with even an ounce of gray matter.
Stop with the exaggerations. It sounds easy to me. Why's it so hard for most of you?

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#23520 - 07/12/07 01:24 PM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
Shoegaze99 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.:
That's my point & you (Netrigan) prove it well with more exaggerated "examples"...
Like..."Nicknames are destroying comics", JB never used the word "destroy", but you use it because it's over-the-top.
“Oh gosh, he didn’t use this exact word, therefore it’s another horrible, awful exaggerations!”

John Byrne, the man who routinely rants about all the damage being done to comics, how Comics As They Should Be Done are under attack from a variety of sources and who hates modern comics (though he does not read them) and large aspects of fandom, also rants that nicknames having contributed to the current state of comics and comic fandom. He says:
Quote:
In another thread, I mentioned NYC Mayor Rudi Guiliani's "war" on so-called "quality of life" crimes. The graffiti vandals, the squeeqie guys, etc. The people who contributed to an overall decline in the day to day life in New York. Guiliani reasoned -- and was proven correct -- that looking the other way when these "small scale" crimes were being committed contributed to a general negative attitude toward and about the city.

There is, for me, a parallel in the use of these cutesy-poo, and usually disrespectful short-forms of the character's names. "Supes". "Bats". "Wolvie". "Maggie". They come from, and contribute to, a subtle and insidious mentality in fandom. That whole "Oh, I am so much superior to this foolish comic books I am reading! Please, don't judge me by this trash! I am better than that!" As Guiliani saw with the "quality of life" crimes, it becomes a cumulative effect, and when we throw in a few other factors, equally "small" taken on their own -- well, we end up with the mess the industry is in today, don't we?
Okay, so he likens fans using nicknames to the “overall decline” of a city and says they helped lead us to “the mess the industry is in today,” an industry he can’t stop criticizing. More on that later. He follows that comment up with:
Quote:
When the readers start doing it, however, it creates a subtle and unfortunate undercurrent. Can you really have respect for characters you diminish in this way? Can you expect anyone else to?
SOURCE

He later says nicknames help to “undermine the whole” of comics. ( Source )

And still later:
Quote:
The longer I stuck around, tho, the more I saw the likes of "Supes" and "Bats" and all the other increasingly ridiculous and demeaning "nicknames" becoming a problem. When I came online I saw it as an epidemic, and a sad reflection of the feigned ennui of too many so-called "fans".
Source

Problem. Epidemic. Erm…

(As a side note, that thread is in general a fine, fine example of John Byrne acting like a dickhead, a dismissive, curt old coot without a shred of respect for viewpoints that are not his own.)

(Also worth noting, he says the nicknames diminish the characters. What does the thesaurus say? That said word may be used in place of “tear down,” “die away,” “impair,” etc. But we’ll get into that below …)

In an older discussion on nicknames Byrne speaks of erosion and rot and the like. One quote of many:
Quote:
But the grandeur has slipped away. More and more writers want to magnify the "feet of clay", forgetting that it was telling tales of how the heroes rose above those human frailties that made Marvel Comics what they were. And in the slow errosion of that special magic, referring to the characters by these infantile nicknames has played an important part.
He also says:
Quote:
What I address with my complaint here is the rot from within.
SOURCE

Rot from within. Erosion. Erm…

(Purely coincidence, I’m sure, but that thread also paints a picture of Byrne as a dickhead.)

(Also worth noting how many of those loyal fans from that old thread have since left him out of disgust, been banned from his forums, or both.)

So John Byrne has said that nicknames have contributed to the mess the industry is in. And what shape does Byrne think the industry is in? Here are only a sparse few of the many, many, many statements he has made decrying the current state of the industry.
Quote:
the industry has slim hope of recovery, or even survival
SOURCE
Quote:
PEOPLE WHO MISS DEADLINES ARE LAZY, ARROGANT, UNPROFESSIONAL C*CKS*CKERS WHO ARE IN NO SMALL WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF THE INDUSTRY. AND THE 'FANS' WHO SUPPORT THEM ARE BRAINDEAD ELITIST MORONS.
SOURCE
Quote:
Since I have no interest in working for a company apparently so intent on committing suicide, I have terminated my association with Marvel Comics effective immediately.
SOURCE

That’s just a sparse, sparse few, of course, selected because they’re interesting quotes that also happen to illustrate what he thinks of the current state of the industry.

So, he likens nicknames to the “overall decline” of a city and “erosion” and “rot,” and says they have contributed to “the mess the industry is in today,” an industry he says has a “slim hope of recovery, or even survival.”

Hmmmm.

For a guy who gripes about “context,” Paul, you sure are lacking in contextual reading skills. Even someone who didn’t have a full awareness of Byrne’s frequent lessons, gripes and lectures would find “nicknames are destroying comics” to be a fair enough assessment of the stance outlined in the quotes cited above. CERTAINLY no more exaggerated than your idiotic “people say JB kicks puppies!” nonsense, and in fact very much less so. The terms, phrases and tone he uses make that a perfectly just summing up of his stance.

And for those who do, in fact, have knowledge of Byrne’s frequent lessons, gripes and lectures? Context is key. I’ve given you some context above (and there is plenty more out there). The bottom line is pretty clear.

John Byrne thinks when fans use superhero nicknames they are contributing to the destruction of comics.

Oh, sorry, he didn’t use the word “destroy.” I’m exaggerating again! No, he’s only saying that fans using nicknames is diminishing, eroding, negatively impacting, and rotting an industry he either thinks is dead or on the cusp of death.

Erm …

So yeah, anyway, when you finally manage to cite one of these terrible, unjust exaggerations you keep talking about, well ...

I don't mean this as an insult and mean it in the nicest way possible, Pally, so please, do not be insulted: You're a moron with at best a tenuous grasp on the English language.

I mean that in the nicest way possible. No offense. But you fail.

Again.
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#23521 - 07/12/07 01:31 PM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.:
Amazing. Some just can't face reality.
Dude, if you could only see the irony of that statement. And I mean real irony, not that fakey Alanis Morrisette kind.

Real irony.

Damn.

It brings a tear to the eye.

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#23522 - 07/12/07 02:47 PM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
Netrigan Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/05
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.:

I do NOT have to site examples because they are obvious to anyone with even an ounce of gray matter.
First rule of debating. You're not trying to capture the heart and mind of the person you're debating... you're trying to capture the hearts and minds of those who are listening.

Your failure to produce examples, especially in light of us accusing you of being so dim-witted that you can't think of any, fails to produce any sort of positive effect for your side. It makes you look like a chump of the worst order.

We have produced, time and time and time and time and time again, examples of Byrne's stupidity. We site them chapter and verse here, because there's so many of them, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Oh, wait, there's that pesky "exaggeration" again.

Colorful language is a part of these sort of discussions. It makes it entertaining to read (and type). Otherwise, it's just a laundry list of complaints. So, you let loose with some colorful language, but you never ever lose sight of the truth.

We put those complaints into the proper context, we do not gild the lily (another "exaggeration") by making up stuff Byrne didn't do, and we often provide direct links or quotes to back up our account of the situation. Honestly, it's more fun this way, because it's fun watching someone like you squirm, because we don't give them an easy out by telling lies.

The simple fact of the matter is, John Byrne has driven away a good number of his fans. I've talked to a lot of them. Even the folks who still hang around will often complain about Byrne's attitude, which is very likely the real reason why there's no chat function over there, as it had been turned into a Byrne Bitch-Fest by a lot of his most ardent supporters. I think the official reason was that someone had posted a log of it on-line... an "exaggeration" since it was only sent via PM before the Chat got shut down by Byrne.

But, by all means, continue with your present debating tactics. It just makes it a lot easier for people like me to make their case.

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#23523 - 07/12/07 03:11 PM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
Shoegaze99 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Netrigan:
Even the folks who still hang around will often complain about Byrne's attitude, which is very likely the real reason why there's no chat function over there, as it had been turned into a Byrne Bitch-Fest by a lot of his most ardent supporters. I think the official reason was that someone had posted a log of it on-line... an "exaggeration" since it was only sent via PM before the Chat got shut down by Byrne.
Byrne's stated reason for shutting down the chat room was ... well, let's let him speak for himself. His comment on the matter:
Quote:
Since I can control neither these postings nor (more importantly) the content of the chats, I have elected to shut down the Chat Room.
The thread in which he made the post has since been deleted (though it remained in Google's cash until March or so, as noted here ), but the comment was quoted pretty widely on several sites at the time it was made.
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#23524 - 07/12/07 07:17 PM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
stanleylieber Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/07
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally posted by aric shapiro:

JB's art has clearly evolved, like it or loathe it, it has changed. Problem is that for many of us(myself included), we still "see" the characters the way he used to draw them. When I see Superman, it is JB's MOS Superman. That guy looks very different from the guy he draws now. And he has been drawing the "new" Superman since Generations, which incidentally I liked.
I just read GENERATIONS I this week. I liked it a lot, including the art. I was shocked that the Superman in there looked like the familiar Byrne Superman, to my eyes. (Last month I read his entire ACTION run, so it's fresh in my mind.) Or, maybe I'm nuts. smile


Quote:
Originally posted by aric shapiro:

His art still impresses the hell out of me. I loved the recent Thor character pose, enjoyed the Deadman pose(it was pretty novel actually) and generally LOVE his take on Batman. I UNDERSTAND that many don't like his new style, and that is a personal matter, but many, if not all of the technical reasons people dislike his art for today, existed during his X-Men and FF tenure. Check out the trades. All the stuff people complain about now was there. If anything his technique has improved

Well, sort of. I have recently re-read his entire FF run, all of his Dark Horse material, all of his WONDER WOMAN material, as I said, the entire ACTION run, the AVENGERS WEST COAST run, GENERATIONS I, and the recent stuff like his tenure as "art robot" on ACTION, some issues of DOOM PATROL and BLOOD OF THE DEMON. The things that bug me about his current work are not present in the pre-2000 work, for the most part. The excessive use of diagonal panels (which I assume is inspired by Neal Adams), the inconsistent faces (at least, with the way he used to draw the characters). Superman's anatomy in general, actually, is completely different. He's stalkier now. Bryne can draw how he wants -- obviously -- I'm just saying, I don't really like where he's going. On the other hand, as I said, I didn't like JBNM or WW when I first saw them either, and now I do. So maybe it's just me.

Quote:
Originally posted by aric shapiro:

I respect the fact that many dislike his inking style. It took me time to get used to it, as most of his early works were inked by others.

Actually, I much prefer it when he inks himself. I've developed a real taste for his inking. The early FF issues look great. I love ALPHA FLIGHT. The same with JBNM. I think he really hit a balance there. Even today, comparing his pencils scans with published issues, the scans a lot better than what eventually ends up on the printed page. Maybe Byrne is right. It's the inkers' fault.

Quote:
Originally posted by aric shapiro:

What troubles me is not the art, but the behavior, which on occasion(no, not all the time) is out of bounds and out of control
There are very few people who would dispute that point.

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#23525 - 07/12/07 07:20 PM Re: Does John Byrne have any more comics work?
jwyatt Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 1259
Loc: San Francisco, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.:
Quote:
Originally posted by Netrigan:

So, we're left with two options at this point. Paul is totally sincere about his Byrne love (yet spends very little time interacting with the man... which, considering the number of Byrne fans who he's alienated over the years, might be the best course of action for any Byrne), but that would mean he isn't terribly bright, as he consistently gets on the losing side of arguments because he lacks the essential facts. Or this is some sort of performance art, which is kinda clever, because it's seriously hard to maintain this level of deception over a long period of time.
Or maybe both of your theories are wrong? You know, like opinions?
Why do you think you lose so many arguments?

Why do enter into so many arguments without any ability to back up your opinions?

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