Oh, I wasn't talking about one editor choosing strips for publication...I agree, that would certainly narrow the types of strips presented.

I was thinking more along the lines of an editor/editors who catagorizes the strips...A good example is dmoz.org A giant open-source database, that is edited by various volunteers. The scale of DMOZ is far beyond that of Keenspot...but the idea of having human editors could work.

I also agree with your above post that catagorizing web comics isn't an easy task. Trying to peg a comic to a particular genre isn't always the best idea.

Taxonomy in general is flawed...yet I can't imagine walking into a library that didn't at least try.

Do people remember "Toonscape?" When you submitted a strip to Toonscape, you, the creator, were asked to pick the two (or three, I can't recall...) catagories you thought best represented your work. This wasn't a very scientific process, but it was a start.

-bryant paul johnson
Tragi-Comix

I'll review everyone! ;D

Remember to send your money and women. They help me think better.

Even the greatest of strips are disliked or are treated indifferently by lots of people. I've been showing friends PVP, Elf Life, and CRFH for years, and they rarely reciprocate my enthusiasm. People always find different vices and virtues. What you like about a strip is usually what other folks dislike about the strip.

The problem with reviewing comic strips is that you have to find some guy who is the Ultimate Arbirtrarrarar of What Is Funny.

...though it gets a little easier with more
serious/serial strips. The basics of storytelling fall under much less nebulous rules.

Now excuse while I go try again to convince my roommate that Superosity #1 is a great comic book.

--David
(No really! It's the best super hero comic
book ever! [img]/resources/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

To take the conversation beyond Keenspot for a moment: I never found bigpanda or any number of other portals particularly useful as a reader, either. At least Keenspot actually has a selection process (one that many people have complained is too restrictive -- though I personally think it's probably not restrictive enough). For most portals, though, there's far too much reliance on automation, and not enough on good old editorial elbow grease.

Categorization is one issue, and it's a tough one (my categorization choices are often completely arbitrary -- and I freely admit it). The other, bigger issue is that most webcomics portal owners don't actually read the comics they're linking to -- or, if they do, they only look at them once. They're just interested in getting as large a collection of links as possible in their databases. That's why you end up with masses of broken links, non-updating comics and/or just general crap in most webcomics portals.

I'm trying to make sure that I read every webcomic I put in the portal. If it's a serial, I have made a committment to check back at least once a week (and, in the listings themselves, you'll see notices about serials that aren't updating -- which notices, hopefully, will change the instant those comics start updating; you'll also see me make notes about new storylines starting up -- not because the cartoonist emailed me, but because I went to the comic and I read it and found out for myself). If it's a short-story or other kind of one-off, I'll check back from time to time to make sure it's still online.

This means that the Quality Webcomics portal can never get awfully large. Which is fine. At some point, I may have to even start removing comics, to make room for new comics that I like better. Which is also fine. If I'm not willing to read it at least once a week, it doesn't go into the portal.

Yes, this is very subjective. The Quality Webcomics directory will thrive or die based on how many people find my selections interesting and useful. But that's par for the course for an editor. If you can't stand on the ground of your own taste, you have no ground to stand on. I take the selection process very seriously. Webcomics needs a good filter.

Actually, webcomics needs numerous filters -- filters for all kinds of tastes. I encourage anybody else who wants to build a portal to do so. The more the merrier! I didn't even write the code for this, by the way: you can download open source code for portals at
http://www.phpnuke.org/

... and adapt it to your own needs, like I did.

I'm closing up the Keenspot poll now. Cool wins (57%) with 85 people voting. Next poll to be announced very shortly.

Thanks!

Joey www.talkaboutcomics.com

Really? I'm sorry Mac, whoever told you that was wrong - if you're talking about the CCA that is.

Quote:

That seems to be changing, though. Whenever someone e-mails me and asks if I plan on joining Keenspot/space, I explain that I like to be independent, and that hopefully I can still be a friend of Keen without actually being Keen.

Just to be clear, Keenspot is the business they invite you to join. Keenspace is the free hosting service they run. Everyone on Keenspace is independant.

Regards, Tim Broderick http://oddjobs.keenspace.com

If the Keenspot selection process is too restrictive then I weep for the future of the medium.

I can catagorize keenspot comics into two simple catagories: Quality strips worth nuturing and promoting, and boat anchors.

I'm very interested to see what Keenspot will do next when things get tight. The smart thing to do would be shutting down keenspace completely. That could possibly buy them some time and save them thousands of dollars of bandwidth a month.

The next thing would be to cut at least half of the keenspot comics and focus on building off the quality of the good strips. That way you have a smaller tighter group of properties that you can work with and sell sponsorships on.

But if I know Keenspot, they'll just keep building and growing until they collapse under their own weight. Because it would be wrong not to inlcude everyone.

We'll see. I hope they don't do the wrong thing because I have some good friends with Keenspot comics that I don't want to see hurt.

[This message has been edited by Scott Kurtz (edited 10-15-2001).]

You know, I'm interested in seeing when bandwidth charges will go down. I don't know enough about the industry, but it seems to me that the cost of bandwidth has some artificial costs associated with it.

I mean, it's reasonable for the people I buy access from to pass on their costs to me. And it's reasonable that the people they pay for access pass on their costs. But what I'm not really clear about is where the first costs are decided. It's there that I wonder if there's some pricing problems.

If anyone has an information, I'd appreciate the education.

Regards, Tim Broderick http://oddjobs.keenspace.com

According to a research report we published at my dayjob (streamingmedia.com), the cost of wholesale bandwidth (the kind of bandwidth that your ISP and/or your ISP's CDN buys from backbone owners -- the people who own and control the physical pipes) has gone down significantly over the past year -- but hosting services aren't passing down the savings. Which is interesting, in this very severe market. Our report was specific to streaming media hosting providers, not web hosting providers, of course -- but the same thing seems to be true across the board.

For more info, see the "Cost of Streaming Services, Second Edition" report (it costs money, alas):
http://www.streamingmedia.com/research/

Our analysts' conclusion was that at some point it becomes more viable for content providers to come together in a collective and buy wholesale bandwidth directly from the backbone -- provided that those content providers have the technical expertise to set up servers, etc. Perhaps Keenspot should look into that solution, if bandwidth continues to be a problem for them.

On the idea that Scott raised, of dropping Keenspace -- when I interviewed Darren Bluel for Digital Comics Talk a few weeks ago (the interview hasn't been posted on the site yet), he told me that the majority of bandwidth usage comes from Keenspot, not Keenspace.

100% Uneducated Supposition: I didn't ask him, but I'm willing to bet that there are three or four high quality Keenspot strips that account for most of the bandwidth usage for the entire company. Dropping Keenspace may not save them the money they'd need to save, if they need to save money. Dropping Sinfest might actually save them more. But that would surely be shooting themselves in the foot, and moving in the direction that *nobody* wants them to move (sacrificing quality).

Joey www.talkaboutcomics.com

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Listen to Digital Comics Talk while you browse these boards:
http://www.talkaboutcomics.com/listennow.php

I never thought about that, Joey, but you could be right.

I just assume that with over 1000 comics on keenspace that it would be a bandwidth hog, but if no one is going to visit those sites, it only costs hard drive space and tech support time.

Sinfest is probably half of keenspots traffic, but if you look at his extreme tracking stats, it seems he's losing visitors.



[This message has been edited by Scott Kurtz (edited 10-15-2001).]

Mr. Kurtz,

First, a disclaimer. I have been with Keenspot since April 2000.

That said, I have a few questions and a comment.

1. Why, exactly, did you feel it neccesary to include that last comment regarding Tatsuya's readership? It seems rather smug and unprofessional.

2. Could you direct me to a website, publication or other source where print cartoonists regularly critisize each other's work and/or "business model?" Because as someone who has been in print since long before all but a handful of web comics even existed, I haven't found such a resource.

Sir, I congratulate you for your success. I just feel time could be better spent improving our writing skills or our line work, rather than letting a tiny, tiny percentage of web surfers give us the ego we don't quite deserve. Remember, 50,000 regular readers is one mid size American city newspaper.

Owen Dunne
You Damn Kid
(Boat Anchor?)

Keenspot purports to be a professional website, with professional cartoons. Taking criticism is part of being a professional.

Print comics have numerous critical outlets. The Comics Journal is the leading one. The Warren Ellis Forum has turned into a pretty good online one. There aren't enough of them -- you're right. But, ultimately, criticism helps the person or organization criticized more than it helps anyone else -- especially when it's offered in a sane, reasonable tone (Scott has been known to fly off the handle -- he isn't flying off the handle in this thread).

What is the problem here? I don't get it.

Joey www.talkaboutcomics.com

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Listen to Digital Comics Talk while you browse these boards:
http://www.talkaboutcomics.com/listennow.php