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#24513 - 02/06/07 02:51 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Quote:
Originally posted by shjonescrk:
Except that comics sales went up and up following Watchmen and DK and only crashed 10 years after they came out. I suppose their negative effects finally got through. Or maybe they created the speculator boom?

I think Byrne is jealous of Watchmen. Moore is famous outside of the ghetto of comics.
I don't think sales went "up and up following Watchmen and DK". Marvel sales in the 80s increased from the 70s and DC's sales increases that decade followed in the wake of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, not WATCHMEN or DK. Sales remained pretty good until they exploded during the speculator boom.

Mike

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#24514 - 02/06/07 02:56 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Quote:
Originally posted by Shoegaze99:
I loathe to my core the dozens of generic fantasy Tolkien ripoffs that have been written over the years (Terry Brooks ought to be forced to eat every last copy of Sword of Shannarra), but I sure as hell don't wish The Lord of the Rings hadn't been written so as to avoid the plague of crap, even if that plague of crap did clutter the fantasty shelves for too long.

Don't get me wrong, I get your point and think it's a fair one. I just don't understand the mindset of wishing away an artistic creation, period. (Not saying you are, either.) That whole notion strikes me as wrong.
I don't think I'd wish away an artistic creation either but then again, I'm not trying to make a living in the industry affected by that creation. Despite what some people may say about Byrne, he can at the very least still produce "perfectly acceptable" super-hero adventure comics and that seems to be the sort of work he wants to produce. Unfortunately, the influence of WATCHMEN and DKR (exacerbated hugely by the speculator boom/bust) has massively shrunk the audience for that sort of work. That kind of thing might make even the best of us a bit bitter.

Mike

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#24515 - 02/06/07 05:15 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
If Mr. Byrne isn't happy with the state of comics, why doesn't he put his experience and talent to a purpose and create something so good, the way he thinks comics should be, that people will all try to copy him?

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#24516 - 02/06/07 05:33 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
Not From Around Here Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1489
Quote:
Originally posted by Shoegaze99:
So, NFAH, you wish that Watchmen had never been written? Or is it just that you don't care for the imitations that have come along?
Rationally I suppose I should say that the imitations are what I really regret. I think to some extent Dave Porta might be right about many people misunderstanding why "Watchmen" was so popular and significant.

But to be honest, I don't like "Watchmen," even though it is an impressive piece of craftsmanship. I hate the direction in which most superhero comics have subsequently gone with a passion, and insofar as "Watchmen," for whatever reason, played a major role in making this possible I hate it as well and wish it would all just go away. It's a deep emotional reaction.

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#24517 - 02/06/07 06:51 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
Alias Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/99
Posts: 1115
Loc: Las Vegas Nevada USA
Reason and emotion sometimes agree, which is cool. But when in competition, emotion pounds reason into the ground with more ferocity than the "darkest" comic scribe could ever properly articulate.

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#24518 - 02/06/07 07:42 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
Shoegaze99 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Artful and diplomatic, something I've not quite managed on this topic. Kudos, Alias.
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#24519 - 02/06/07 07:48 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
RANDY Offline
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Registered: 05/12/00
Posts: 2343
Loc: U.S.A.
The so called "darkening" of superhero comics didn't begin the moment The Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen were published. It has it's precursers that date as far back the mid-seventies or even earlier. Ironically Byrne himself, along with Claremont, is responsible for a then infamous scene that showed Wolverine using his claws to kill a guard in the Savage Land. While it's not depicted in an explicit manner it nevertheless leaves no question as to what Logan's doing. So perhaps Byrne shouldn't protest so much.

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#24520 - 02/06/07 08:16 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Eh, I loved WATCHMEN and DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. The DARK KNIGHT sequel sucked hard, though. Is that what Byrne meant by the second half? Or did he mean the third and fourth issues of the 1986 series?

As for blaming Moore and Miller for the bad imitators that followed ... well, I don't know if that's fair. And you could argue that comics had dark periods before, when super-heroes killed their villains (the late 1930s) and mobster gals got hypodermic needles stuck in their eyeballs (the 1950s).

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#24521 - 02/06/07 08:17 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
Shoegaze99 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Not to mention Gwen Stacey snapping her neck, Tony Stark going alcoholic, and other such good times.
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#24522 - 02/06/07 08:23 PM Re: BYRNE: "I wish Watchmen had never been written"
Shoegaze99 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Lawson:
Eh, I loved WATCHMEN and DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. The DARK KNIGHT sequel sucked hard, though. Is that what Byrne meant by the second half? Or did he mean the third and fourth issues of the 1986 series?
He means the third and fourth issues. According to Byrne, Miller read what Moore was working on and was so taken with it he switched gears on Dark Knight halfway through. Byrne says DKR is Miller at the start, Moore influenced in the end.

Having never reread it with an eye out for this theory, I can't say whether or not I agree.

I CAN say that whether or not you like it, preferring Watchmen had never been written is absurd.
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