Thanks again.

You got my thoughts exactly right. I reason I think Gaiman's work is gothic is beacause of Death and his goth folowing.

I might think about Sandman still. I might hold out if only for the fact that some of the symbolism(I heard there is alot of that in Sandman) and thoughts of the characters might go over my head and I might lose the value of the story.Also, I've heard it is extremly violent. Espicailly with characters like John Costantite(I heard he appears in Sandman),and a bounty killer convention(I've also heard about that).

When it comes to non-superhero graphic novels or comics collections that also are suitable for teenagers, conservative Christians, or other people concerned about sex and violence, I go along with a lot of the other votes cast here--especially the work of Jeff Smith and Kyle Baker. I'd also add:

Paul Chadwick's Concrete, the low-key adventures of a man trapped in a huge, rocky body. There are occasional flashes of nudity and some sexual content, but they're handled tastefully.

Carl Barks' Donald Duck and Uncle Scrooge stories. They're funny, inventive, action-filled, and often very sophisticated.

Larry Gonick's Cartoon History books. Gonick tells humanity's story with clarity, accuracy and humor.

Virtually anything by Will Eisner.

Collections of Harvey Kurtzman's MAD, Two-Fisted Tales, and Frontline Combat. These may seem like odd choices, because MAD is irreverent and the other two are violent (though never needlessly). Still, the violence and irreverence serve Kurtzman's main goal, a very moral one: to scrape away cant and lies, and tell the truth about human behavior.

There are lots more, but these are a good start.

I just went back and read this whole thread, and for some reason I feel I should point out that, while the most of the first half of Cerebus is largely free of graphic violence, issue 150 (reprinted in Melmoth and a sort-of starting point for Mothers & Daughters) is a bloodbath. Not that I objected to it then or now, but I thought it bore mentioning. Cerebus' final battle with Cirin during M&D isn't exactly a pillow fight, either.

Three Fingers by Rich Koslowski is an interesting piece of work which reminds me of an idea I was kicking around in the late '80s, only much, much darker.

Paul

Thanks for the reply's.

That Concreate book sounds interesting I might give it a try.

Hmmmm...characters with spiky bird's nest or color streaked hair,attired in flowing black robes, fetish gear or at the very least punk/goth garb, references to mythology as well as Renaissance/Byronic/Victorian literature, allusions to the occult and numerous depitions of sub-cultures...exactly where is the Sandman not goth? Or is this a Cho-esque argument of "It's not goth because it's good"?

Well, Neil doesn't think it's goth. I've spoken to him about it on more than one occasion, and he's always been frankly surprised at the way the goth kids took to Sandman and made Death in particular their icon.

No, I don't think goth=bad or anything like that. But frankly part of the problem here is that the definition of Goth has changed a lot in the dozen or so years since Sandman debuted, and Neil's influence on so many goths is a large part of the reason why. Mythology, for instance, was not a large part of the goth equation in 1988, nor was Renaissance literature. Byron, yeah. The Romantic poets in general, yeah, and the later 19th Century folks, as well. But Shakespeare? Not really, despite the obvious fact (that most goths back then wouldn't have noticed) that Hamlet was the First Goth. (" 'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother. . . ")

There were people with rainbow streaked hair before there were ever goths. We used to call them punks. You could argue whether Rose is a goth or a punk, when of course the answer is she's neither, she's Rose Walker, and that ought to be enough.

You say "punk/goth" as if they were the same thing, but while it's true that to some extent the goth scene grew out of the punk scene, the punk ethic is to reject ALL the things you see as goth in Sandman -- mythology, literature, all these bourgeois ideals are anathema to a true punk. And in the early days of goth, when Morrisey and the Smiths defined "goth," I don't think anybody was reading most of the things Gaiman alludes to in Sandman, certainly not Russian folk tales or Greek mythology or Haroun Al-Raschid.

There are parts of Sandman that are goth, and Sandman certainly seems to appeal to goths. But Sandman is not, on the whole, a "goth" comic, which is certainly the impression you might get seeing who used to show up at his signings in the mid-'90s (the crowd's widening a bit lately).


Steve Bolhafner

Yeah, I've heard about the purported punk ethic to reject goth, or classic rock or whatever, and maybe that was even the case in the 70's. But the truth of it is that even here in NY where the scenes are more rigidly divided there's plenty of crossover into other musical genres. Most everyone I know who is into punk or plays in a punk band is also aware of or interested in other types of music.

And as for the mythology thing, I DO recall interest in that being part of the goth culture circa 1988, particularly in goths who were attracted to or dabbled in anything mystical.(Never mind those photo links in the "Hottie" thread. I'm older that I look), particularly in that subset of goth where it was hip to read Crowley, listen to Current 93, yadda yadda. In the days before someone invented a $70 coffin shaped lunch box as a status symbol there was definitely an intellectual undercurrent in goth, or at least a pretentiousness

No, no, my point was you were saying "punk/goth" as if the two were the same, and at the same time saying that all these literary allusions Gaiman was making were pure goth. You can't have it both ways. Punk is, was and always will be at root anti-intellectual. There are, it's true, intellectual punks, but they are punks in a deliberately campy sort of way, or seek to define themselves in oxymoronic paradox. The movement itself is based on "can't play, can't sing, can shout, am angry, let's tear something apart."

Goth is, as you point out, very different -- and indeed it was largely intelligent kids who were originally drawn to punk for its nihilism and anger who were eventually turned off by its anti-intellectuallism who created goth. But they weren't, for the most part, as well-read and universal in their tastes and background as Neil Gaiman (few people are), and the parts of Sandman that really fit the original goth scene are just that; parts of it here and there. It's just that, in 1989, few people in popular culture paid ANY attention to goths, so when this comic book came out with this guy who looked like Morrisey and was the God of Dreams and especially when his sister Death showed up all decked out in goth gear, well, they claimed it as their own.

Ironically, it wasn't really Neil who was paying attention. His original description was for Dream to be dressed in a robe "of night and fire," and his own crude sketches show more fire than night. Death was originally supposed to be Louise Brooks, an actress from the 1920s who has been almost forgotten now but was the quintessential flapper in her day. It was a fortuitous accident, really, that Sam Keith drew Dream to look sort of like Neil himself and sort of like Morrisey and made his cloak primarily black with little flames along the bottom, without which the whole thing might never have started. And the artist who first drew Death drew her as a model he knew named Cinammon, which Neil was feeling so-so about and not really happy with until they went into a restaurant and were served by a waitress who looked almost exactly the way the artist drew Cinammon and was even wearing an ankh around her neck, and Neil took that as a sign (that story's in the Sandman Companion, I believe).

I don't think Sandman would have been considered goth if he'd had a mainly flaming coat and Death had been Louise Brooks. And it's entirely possible that much of what we consider goth today wouldn't be goth without Sandman. The goths adopted the comic because of the physical representation of those two characters, more than anything else (though there were certainly other elements of affinity, don't get me wrong), and because they had adopted the book as their own, they in turn adopted much of what Neil put into the book, from the Nagel prints that inspired Desire to the tale of Orpheus.

You say mythology was already big. Maybe so, but the Sandman Special was originally going to be a series of jazz riffs on the theme of Orpheus. But when Neil did a signing tour -- a tour at which many, many of the people who showed up at least dressed like goths -- he would mention this and they would say "You mean Morpheus." And he'd say "No, Orpheus, the Greek myth of Orpheus," and they'd stare blankly at him, and he realized he couldn't do a series of jazz riffs, because for jazz riffs to work the audience has to be familiar with the original melody, so he'd have to do something like a straight rendition of the story, because none of them had heard of Orpheus.

Neil told me that in an interview several years ago when he was promoting Stardust. So I say, if goths are into mythology now, it's the influence of Sandman on the goths, not the fact that Sandman is a goth comic.

Leonore is a goth comic. Johnny the Homicidal Maniac is a goth comic. Gloomcookie is a goth comic. I like all of them, by the way, so again this isn't "well, it's good so it can't be goth."

But Sandman isn't goth. Honest.

I said goth/punk not because I think they're the same, but because there does tend to be a lot crossover, sorry punk purists, but it's true. I myself would get bored listening to only one thing all the time. As for punk itself, even if the movement started with anti-intellectual nihilism, it doesn't seem to have stayed there. There's different sub-sets of punk, there have been plenty of bands that had social or politcal commentary going on too, Crass, DK, even those shitheads in Earth Crisis who can't mind their own business.

As far as goth goes, ok, so Neil Gaiman met a bunch of teenagers who never heard of Orpheus. Again, there were lots of subsets of goths and I'm telling you, I knew goths who were aware of mythology and stuff like that. They were usually more the type who were reading Crowley than Anne Rice and listening to Current 93 and Psychic TV than Christian Death and London After Midnight, but I do know that they were part of the goth scene. Maybe I don't know every liner note involved in the creation of the Sandman, but I do know that not all punks or all goths are just one way or the other.