I think I disagree with about 99.9 percent of Jesse Ventura's views. But if he ever ran for president I'd vote for him-- it might be the only chance I got in my lifetime to vote for somebody who's dared to criticize organized religion.

I get angry when I see the pundits jumping on Ventura, saying he's 'beyond the pale' and a bigot because of what he said about religion. I don't agree with Ventura that church-goers are necessarily weak-minded; but his comment was no more prejudiced than the kind rhetoric the Christian Coalition offers up every day of the week.

As a devout atheist, I very much admire cartoonist like Dan Clowes, and Colin Upton, who've used their work to express skepticism about the belief in god.

Unfortunately, atheistic cartoonists often avoid the issue, some by choice, others not. We're still living in the shadow of the Comics Code Authority, and too many people think that young people shouldn't have their tender ears exposed to the opinion that 'god is dead.'

By contrast, many religious cartoonists go out of their way to express their beliefs. Recently a group of Christian cartoonists put out an excellent anthology, PARABLES AND PROVERBS, advocating their gospel. Just the other day, Family Circle cartoonist Bil Keene did a panel advocating the 'prayer in school' amendment. Mainstream superhero adventures often assume quasi-religious overtones in series like KINGDOM COME.

Atheist and others whose beliefs are out of the mainstream should be encouraged to express their views in comics. It's especially important that children be exposed to positive portrayals of unbelief at an early age, to give them the intellectual tools they need to make up their own minds.

For more information about atheism and secular humanism, check out this cool website: http://www.secularhumanism.org/pr/

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Joe Zabel
joezabel@hotmail.com
Vist the Amazing Montage webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~amazingmontage or go to the Joe Zabel booth in 'Select a Booth' above!

Joe,

I think you're pretty much right, but I sometimes think that when Christians have friends like Preacher and Hellblazer, I'm not sure we atheists need any friends in comics. (Well, at least not in mainstream comics ...)

[This message has been edited by Charles Reece (edited 10-08-1999).]

"It's especially important that children be exposed to positive portrayals of unbelief at an early age"

I know it's not an ideal world but I've always felt that children shouldn't have belief systems foisted upon them at an early age. If they have the sense to question for themselves then they will in their own time without the need for "intellectual tools", any "push" to show them alternate views to what they might be growing up with will likely only lead to conflict within their family circle.

I agree with most of what you say, I just don't feel that the comics need to seek out the children (ie. "atheists and others whose beliefs are out of the mainstream" directly targeting young children), if the children themselves aren't willing to seek out the comics (or books, films, etc.) then they probably aren't likely to question what they've been brought up with.




[This message has been edited by Gwyn Boudreau (edited 10-08-1999).]

Jesse Ventura is and was always an bigot. The sorry clowns we have in high government positions only reflect how screwed up the populace is.

The United States is now entering the final phases of all empires and before this generation ends, we will be a third rate power. It is our destiny.

Let's talk about comics, and leave the politics for those others....


Sam

Read: let's only talk about comics in isolation, and any discussion of comics even approaching intellectual stimulation should be deferred to people who think.

There's only so many times one can contemplate the strength of the Hulk, Sam.

If Jesse Ventura was a superhero, he'd be?... The Absorbing Man?

JM

As a devout born-again Christian,I was,as one might guess,angered by Ventura's comments.

It's almost impossible to imagine the same remarks being made about any other group,such as Muslims,Orthodox Jews,Hindus,etc. by a sitting governor in the United States,and he or she still having a job the next day,but such is the state of America at the end of the century...

Joe, it's just my impression,but I don't think there's a Christian "mainstream" anywhere NEAR the comic industry for any atheist "creators" to be "outside"of.

With things like Spawn,Lady Death,Dawn,Purgatori,Hellraiser,Verotik (and on,and on,and on) available in almost every comic shop, I would say that the interests of atheists,pagans,hedonists,occultists,anti-Christians, and Satan-worshipers are represented in force.Add to that superhero titles like DC's recent Heaven & Hell mini-series,which trivialise concepts Christians hold sacred,and it's hard for me to imagine what more you could want.

As for exposing my children to "positive portrayals of unbelief",from my perspective as a believer,there is no such thing.

I honestly don't know how to convey this idea to someone who has not only DOUBTS about the existance of God,but has actually somehow concluded God is an impossibility,but Christian belief is not something I chose out of other religions(like choosing a shirt to wear)--it is something I know in my innermost being to be THE truth,as real to me as gravity.That was not always the case,but the conviction I now have that I once didn't is part of my personal CONVERSION experience and is outside of any secular logic I could offer.

That being the case,perhaps you can see that I would not present my religion to my children as one equal choice among many,like ice cream flavors.That would be abandoning my responsibility as a Christian parent,and as of now,raising my children as Christians is still legal in America.

[This message has been edited by Jim Engel (edited 10-08-1999).]

Jim, atheism is essentially the null hypothesis in a theory of origins. Until someone provides some evidence and a good theoretical reason for their being a god, then you shouldn't believe in it. No one has ever presented such evidence to me, so I'm an atheist. (I know that you feel that the proper evidence has been presented to you, so that's fine. I'm just trying to provide you with an understanding of what not having faith in a god actually means to an atheist.) Likewise, I'm not sure that there wasn't an actual city of Atlantis, but until someone provides some substantial evidence, I'm going to keep on thinking that it didn't exist. In other words, you can't prove the negative, so it's up to the believers to prove the affirmative.

And though it might not be as offensive as Ventura's statement, aren't you making an homologous statement against atheists with, "As for exposing my children to "positive portrayals of unbelief",from my perspective as a believer,there is no such thing."?

(Man, there's a lot of religious talk in the comic book boards lately.)

Additionally, to imply that Christians are somehow the main target of discrimination is just ridiculous, I'm sorry. In a nation where 5% or less is atheist (and most of them are in academia) is to be awash in religiosity every day. Admittedly, I read and listen to a lot of politics, but there isn't a day that goes by where I don't have to consider the viewpoints of Christians (particulary conservative ones -- how many liberal Christians outside of Barry Lynn does one get to hear?). I rarely hear atheism espoused in the news, films, TV (how many atheistic characters are there?), or (to get this back to Joe's topic) comics. I'm sure that religious groups outside of Christianity think the same. (I understand that this is a prominently Christian nation, and capitalism dictates that the majority opinion determines the majority of popular content.) It's true that a lot of Christian content isn't used in accordance to a literal interpretation of the Bible, but Christianity is still being prominently advertised. So, c'mon, Christians a persecuted minority?

Finally, Ventura said belief in god was for the wead-minded [actually, make that 'organized religion', rather than 'belief in god']; he didn't exclude Muslims, Jews, etc.. This is yet more evidence of how the Christian perspective is so prominent that everyone just assumes religion and faith equals Christianity.

I think this will be my last statement on religion on the comic boards. (Probably won't be, but I'm going to try.) If only something decent had been released in the past month, ho hum.

[This message has been edited by Charles Reece (edited 10-08-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Charles Reece (edited 10-09-1999).]

Joe,
Interesting little string you started here, probably more at home in the gutters, but here we are!

First. Jessie Ventura is not a bigot. He's friends with Carl Weathers, and bigots don't have black friends. His personal polotics and views got him elected. He's not afraid to shoot off his mouth, get angry and make mistakes. He's not afraid period. This is some times admirable, not that I admire Ventura, or even AGREE with a single one of his views.

Also, what the hell do people want from poloticians anyway?? Some kind of perfect human who never makes mistakes, never lies, never does drugs, never craves sex? Yeah, poloticians reflect the populace for one simple reason, They are PART of the populace folks. They are people, faults and all. IN this day and age, they live under a microscope more than ever. If they sneeze it's on the damn news, internet, and radio. Thats a whole other post [img]http://207.69.158.95/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Religion. Well, I was raised catholic. We stopped going to church when I was very young. I'm not comfortable with "religion", but many of my family members are. That's cool. We get along great. I just cannot get behind anything that tells people how to think and feel, and damns anyone who does not adhere to the same recipe. I know not all religions do this either. You know who you are [img]http://207.69.158.95/ubb/smile.gif[/img] But hey, if that's what you need to get you through the day, I wish you well.

Now COMICS, the real reason we all type away for hours on this site. I love this medium so much because of the wealth of people I meet from being involved with it. Yeah, from a religious point of view, satan is well represented. Sure. Spawn is all about the devil being the good guy. OH yeah, spawn makes the devil look like your friend. YUP. (sarcasm)

Too bad comic shops who are being raided are not being well represented. Good honest people have had their lives taken away because they sell "porn" to children. Please. I create, and distribute an action comic book. It's not for children. When a young man, maybe 10, wandered up to my table with his Mom, I politely told her, "I'm sorry, this book is not for children." She looked at me like I was the anti-christ, and jerked her kid away from my table. The kid looked at me as his mom pulled him away, he said "I've never heard of a comic not for kids . . . . "

Well, being that your a kid, I'm not surprised. I honestly would have loved to sit and talk to the woman for awhile, she seemed nice, her kid seemed smart. I could have helped her find some cool kids books. But she REACTED. I think this is what has happened to certain comic book shops around the country (sorta), people think this is a nice safe place for kids. They don't bother to research, educate themselves, or drop some silly preconceved notions. It's too bad really.

My point is that comic books are for EVERYONE. Good, bad, stupid, racist, sexist, religious, kids, kids at heart, and adults, looking "whatever" can find it all at any given comic book show or shop. God bless us one and all. Sinners and Saints.

WOW, this is long winded, I apologize, I never post this long, guess JOE is rubbing off on me. Joe, you da man!

Stay safe
NJC





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To Jim Engel:

As someone who was raised a catholic (in France) and studied canon law, I am often reminded that even well-meaning Christians, like you Jim, are what we, catholics, used to call "heretics".

From the viewpoint of the Catholic Church, heretics are worse than pagans, heathens or atheists (who can still be converted) because they're folks who've abjured the True Faith.

Hence the good ol' fashioned burning at the stake, autodafe, crackle crackle crackle etc.

Jim, my heretic friend who's going to hell in a handbasket, do keep in mind that the ONLY reason you're alive today and folks like me aren't showing up on your doorstep to burn you & your family at the stake is because we have built in this country a society based on tolerance.

Tolerance means, among other things, putting up with people who think your religion is crap, the same way that you think their religion (or absence thereof) is crap too.

Jesse Ventura says that organized religion is crap. Agree or disagree, grin and bear it, my friend.

The moment you do anything to tear down this mortar of tolerance that's holding us all together, I'll be showing up at your door with a torch.

Capicce?

JM

[This message has been edited by JM Lofficier (edited 10-09-1999).]