I'm not going to get directly involved here. I just find it interesting that the people with whom I disagree with most strongly are the ones who, from reading their other posts in other threads, seem to be the kind for whom "comics" means "superhero comics."

Sam, I think you're a nut. But you have the right to be a nut. I respect that. As long as your crackpot ideas (on evolution and a zillion other things, I'm sure) don't infect me and mine, it's OK.

I'm not trying to convert you -- a hopeless cause obviously. Please don't try to convert me.

JM

Now addressing the folks here who aren't nuts.

a) Faith and Science:

I think you can be religious and scientific at the same time. Einstein believed in God, and the modern Catholic Church is making commendable efforts to include all modern scientific discoveries with its credo.

Ultimately, I don't see anything inherently irreconciliable between the Catholic Faith and Modern Science.

(American Christian or peudo-Christian "heresies" who insist on taking the Bible at face value are of course something else.)

b) Faith and Tolerance

Where the delicate part comes in, which is sort of swept under the rug for the sake of good relations between various faiths, is that if you're a good Catholic, you have to believe that, your faith being the only true one, everyone else *is* wrong and, sorry to be blunt, but unless they convert and receive the appropriate sacraments, they will go to Hell.

Sorry, but there isn't any escape clause that I'm aware of.

Faith is not about tolerance, guys. You're either on the side of Truth with a capital "T" or you're not. You can show tolerance (ie: not start a Crusade, not persecute the other folks, or burn them at the stake) and you should pray that the other guy will see the light before he or she croaks, but that's about it. It's not like you're supposed to believe that there's another path into Heaven. Faith is not a self-service menu from which you can pick and choose what you like and discard what you don't like.

JM

Oh what the hell...everybody else did...

Semantics: an Atheist is one who firmly rejects the very idea of a suprems being, and is often as passionate in that as any devout worshipper. An Agnostic is closer to Mr. Reece's position of the questioner who is unwilling to accept without PROOF the existance of such a supernatural being. Mr. Ventura's position would be described as a Free-thinker, one who rejects formal, organized religion as opposing reason.

When I was a child there was a red-ant hill outside our back yard. At times I was fascinated with the red ants as they scurried about their tiny lives. Sometimes I fed them bits of my lunch and watched as they ate and carried it away to nothing. Other times, out of childish spite, I poked the hill with a big stick just to see them swarm. But more often than not, other childhood games captured my attention and I forgot they existed. I am certain my existence was also beyond their tiny understanding of life.

This is my belief pertaining to that which we call God. If it does exist, there are several certainties: first, when it grows tired of poking us with sticks, it likely forgets we exist. Second, it will forever be beyond our ability to detect or perceive. Third, if it does watch us endlessly, then we are more likely in the presence of a spiteful child than a wizened old grandfather.

Please continue...

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I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week to make it up.- Twain

Great discussion. I've "lurked" here for a long time, but I'm rarely inspired to write down my own thoughts.

As someone who's classified himself as a Catholic, an agnostic, an atheist, an agnostic again, and, finally, a Catholic again, I guess I like to think that I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I do think it's important to question the values that other people try to instill in you. I know people who are entirely devoted to Jesus, and have been for as long as they can remember. Their parents raised them with these beliefs, and they've never faltered.
That, to me, isn't faith. It's simply programming.
Faith, I think, needs to be tested. I think people are obligated to learn more about other beliefs before they decide, "This is what is true."
Now... would a stronger "atheist presence" in comics be useful in this type of "intellectual/ spiritual odyssey?" My answer is no, for two reasons.
First of all, not enough adults read comic books. If your goal is to present a positive portrayal of your beliefs to an audience, and to spur a discussion, I think you'd be better off working in television, or film, or some other medium. A medium that more people are actually interested in.
Secondly, I don't think it's important to expose young children to a wide variety of beliefs. Not at all. By the time they're entering adolescence, I suppose they're ready to entertain these conflicting view points. But I don't think I'd be doing my friends' two-year-old any favors if I told her, "Your mom and I believe in the Christian God. Other people believe in reincarnation. Still, others believe that there's nothing divine in the universe at all. It's up to you to decide what you want to believe." Kids look to the grown-ups in their lives for guidance. I haven't reached the conclusions regarding God, faith, and the universe lightly. I happen to think I'm right. So when she asks me, I'm going to tell her that God created the world, and his son, Jesus, died for our sins. And when she gets older, we'll have the more sophisticated conversations about how I came to these conclusions.
We're all going to disagree on this issue. Faith is a personal, particular thing. But I should hope that we could find some common ground in a shared belief that Jesse Ventura shouldn't be president because he's just a jerk. I mean, the man speaks in sound bytes and he hasn't done much of anything for the state of Minnesota-- except to lower a few luxury taxes so people in his income level can afford more wave runners and stuff.

Oh, yeah. Jesse Ventura is what passes for an honest man in politics these days. As with Howard Stern, a loud, obnoxious guy with a microphone can become enormously popular with people who may or may not have a serious thought, but like to hear someone who says things they otherwise don't hear on the radio.

I just re-read Michael Lewis' Trail Fever, a journal of the 1996 presidential campaign. It sure seems that Morry Taylor would be a better choice for president than Jesse Ventura. A wrestler? Eeuw! Better a comic book reader.

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"I love him like a brother. David Greenglas." -- Woody Allen - Crimes & Misdemeanors

JM,

Who is trying to convert you? Not I. Who is trying to infect the children with sci-fi nonsense and treat it as actual science and/or fact? Three guesses and the first two don't count.

So I am a nut? That shows how narrow minded you are. You have the right to be narrow minded.

To the rest of the open-minded folks,

A comment was made that Ventura is a free-thinker. Think about that. Just shows you how much his thinking is worth, since it's free.

Charles has outed me. I am a fundamentalist. I believe in the holy script of "If you block better, tackle better, kick better, you win the ball game." I do believe in establishing the running game.

Mr. H, you hit on the head. Now just which comic book person would you want in office? Couldn't be worse than Ventura, well, maybe it could.

Sam

Sam: Do you believe that the running game is a set-up for the pass or are you a smash-mouth, use-up-the-clock fundamentalist? If it's the former, JM is definitely right about you.

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"I love him like a brother. David Greenglas." -- Woody Allen - Crimes & Misdemeanors

...please delete, thanks

William Harms said:
The thing I want to know is this: What if Pat Robertson were to show up here and post the following message?
"Christians whose beliefs are out of the mainstream should be encouraged to express their views in comics. It's especially important that children be exposed to positive portrayals of Christ and His teachings at an early age, to give them the intellectual and spiritual tools they need to make up their own minds and discover that Jesus Christ is the path to salvation."
I suspect such a message would be met with revulsion and universal disdain, but maybe I'm just a cynic.

--

Hiya Williams, your right, I would not like if Pat Robertson said that. But what he wants is *already* out there. I haven't gotten a Previews with me (I don't buy them), but I bet somewhere in there are comics devoted to converting kids to various religions. I know there was one, a guy I was on a mailing list with was going to be the inker for it.

Now those comics probably don't sell very well, as it's devoted to a small segment of a small audience. And it's for that reason Marvel/DC/Image/Dark Horse don't publish similar books. Plus there is the fact some readers would see a book, decide the company is trying to convert kids/people to a belief that they don't share and think twice about trying a new title from that publisher (stupid, but I know this would happen).

But like I said before, go to a bookstore. There is a good chance you will see something, possibly in comic book format that is designed to teach/convert kids to christianity.

What Joe and I are saying is their oughta be similar books that look do the same but for free thinking/atheist point of view.

No, I don't like the idea of the various religions going after kids, trying to convert them at a early age. In fact you'll find me arguing hard against the idea of religion being injected into public schools, as converting kids is the real purpose of doing that.

But since the attempts are being made in book stores and other forms, should atheist creaters/publishers be also attempting to do the same?

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Regards,
Jamie Coville
The History of Superhero Comic Books!
http://www.sigma.net/comichistory/


[This message has been edited by Jamie Coville (edited 10-11-1999).]