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#294866 - 12/11/02 01:01 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
ctsmith83 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 248
Loc: Canada
Rob,

I appreciate the fact that you're doing comic work at a loss because it doesn't pay the bills. You say that you're doing it for fun. In that case, don't solicit anything before it's done. When the work is completed and satisfies you enough to release it, then solicit it. That would be a win-win scenario for both retailers and fans.

Respect (or lack thereof) also follows a person from industry to industry, so if a person in high-tech is hard to work with or not a team player and then tries to switch to teaching, that lack of respect or trust will hamper their efforts to change their career. I'm certain there are several people that are experiencing that right now.

You say that the average retailer is only missing out on $15-$30. That's in U.S. dollars. In Canada, it's more like $25-$50. You are not the only creator who ships late books, so multiply that amount by several factors and you can see why retailers become concerned with late product. If there is $500 tied up in late (or non-existent) books, that's $500 they could've put into some other product that would sell.

Still no Cap sales figures? I thought not...

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#294867 - 12/11/02 01:12 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
MSlander Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 65
Loc: Arlington, VA
"I was talking to a retailer that I frequent and sharing with him the theory shared here by some of the brightest retail minds of how 30,000 ordered copies of Youngblood have upset the delicate balance of the comics business."

Now it's Rob's turn to get nasty...I guess.

No one here is saying that your one delayed book is bringing about the fall of Rome - and I think you know that. So, its insulting for you to present it as such as a way to deflect valid criticism.

I mean, do you actually want someone to add up all the numbers on all the books you've shipped late - or never shipped at all? You have your own well established pattern.

And you're right other books are late. It doesn't excuse anyone else from the same problem.

Frankly, I blame the whole Image jump. While it was a good move in the sens that it shook up the comix power structure, it was a bad move in that the result in the industry has been an overall decline in folks simply getting the job done.

Tell me I'm wrong...? Go ahead. (I know there are some old hands out there too with books that never see the light of day (BWS anyone?).

Savage Dragon and Spawn are the only two books that managed to be published by Image for any length of time and with any degree of consistency. Throw in ShadowHawk if you want, but man did that book blow.

I realize that some of what might be called "unprofessionalism" might better be called "diversification." Guys like Joe M. leave their comic properties to go develop video games. He has every right to do it. Its his life. His Battle Chasers books can wither and die at his will.

But just because it is his freedom doesn't mean that it is particularly good for the industry. Comics rely on consistency to build new readers. Kids have to see those books month after month.

Take as an example...overfishing of open waters. Everyone is free to conduct themselves as they like. They can use the resource in a sustainable matter, or they can conduct themselves in a way that destroys it for future generations. The comics marketplace is in the same situation.

You and an individual and you in complicity with others who conduct themselves in a simliar unprofessional manner are leaving the marketplace barren and lifeless in your wake.

-- MS
_________________________
"Everywhere there is incessant relative change in position throughout the universe, and the observer is always at the center of things." -- Giordano Bruno: "On Cause, Principle and Unity"

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#294868 - 12/11/02 01:17 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 4322
Loc: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area)...
I agree with Rob.

Rob: If you really want to have some fun, I just wrote a proposal for an X-Force mini you'd be perfect for. It'd be a blast to draw and cement you as a force in this industry, again.
_________________________
The Man of Mettle

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#294869 - 12/11/02 01:25 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
Hank Wirtz Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 146
Loc: Issaquah WA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by robdandy:
Hank and Ctsmith,

Let's stop acting like B-sport is taking all these retailers down the tubes. It's a crock and you know it and I now it. Most retailers ordered on average maybe 5-10 copies of the first issue and when B-sport ships in a few weeks, they'll have the opportunity to make up the 15-30 bucks they've been missing. That's right, 15-30 bucks. Keep it in perspective, this isn't Ultimate X-Men we're talking about.

Rob


You're just talking about DIRECT losses... but my main concern is the fact that your late books prevent other small-order books from being ordered in sufficient quantities if at all. If a reader misses an issue, they might drop the title (or not pick it up in the first place), and the domino effect is far, far bigger than your "15-30 bucks."

Don't believe me? That's exactly why I dropped Power Company and Hopeless Savages Vol. 2.

Now, if Dave Sim would only get sick so I'd have an excuse to drop Cerebus. I swear, when he said Cerebus would "die alone, unloved and unmourned," I thought he meant the character, not the book...

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#294870 - 12/11/02 01:54 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
DerekWatson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/05/01
Posts: 15
Loc: St. Albans
"I'm sorry that I haven't made it clear that comics work doesn't and cannot pay the bills in my house. Not if I was the top payed artist in the business could I justify abandoning my current career path based on my fiscal responsibility to my family. The money in comics is gone, it dried up about six years ago after most of us set up our homes and lifestyles."

Better to leave the comics industry to us paupers, then? Comics are what gave you the standard of living you now obviously enjoy. Most artists and writers working NOW rely totally on what they earn from this industry.

The "money dried up" because the industry was bled dry by tardy business practice and over-hyped, poor quality product. I remember a time when an Image INKER (one for you here, Elayne!) earned $150,000 for one issue!!!

I'm really happy for you and you family, Rob. It's great that you have such a high standard of living. Please leave us in peace to scratch around on the floor for the scraps that have been left to us.

You know? In my head I have J-Lo's latest single playing..."I'm still, I'm still Jenny from the block...I used to have a little, now I have a lot..."

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#294871 - 12/11/02 01:59 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
Kommando XXX Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 195
Quote:
Originally posted by ctsmith83:


Oh yeah... Charest really has a lot of respect... He's done what? 8 pages of work in the 2+ years that he's worked for Humanoids. I've heard that they're pretty fed up with his antics. Just ask Scott Lobdell about Charest's tendency to draw whatever he wanted for Wildcats (ignoring the script completely) and having to write dialogue around images that didn't fit the story HE was trying to tell.


What "script?" Last I heard, Lobdell writes "Marvel style," which means he writes a loose plot, gives it to the artist (who does what he wants with it) then Lobdell has to find ways to dialogue the artwork.

But I like your view about BLOODSPORT's representation, though. That's why I'm buying it, if it ever comes out.
_________________________
"I admit you were right. But just this once."--Samuel Catalino to Otto Chelman, 11/20/2030

"You have corrected me. I am humbled."--Otto Chelman to Samuel Catalino, 5/12/2038

"I still think you're mostly wrong."----Samuel Catalino 2.0 trying to prove Otto Chelman cyborg wrong yet again, 3/30/2050

"That was not a well-thought out comment."--Otto Chelman 6.0 trying to prove Samuel Catalino MACH 3X wrong yet again, 8/23/2078

"Are you two done yet?"--Rick Veitch's moderating great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandtwins, to Ultra Computron 9.0-X harboring the dueling personalities of Otto and Samuel, Stardate 1329.8.

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#294872 - 12/11/02 02:16 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
MSlander Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 65
Loc: Arlington, VA
QUOTE: DerekWatson
The "money dried up" because the industry was bled dry by tardy business practice and over-hyped, poor quality product. I remember a time when an Image INKER (one for you here, Elayne!) earned $150,000 for one issue!!!

PRAISE FRAKING JESUS, AMEN!

-- MS
_________________________
"Everywhere there is incessant relative change in position throughout the universe, and the observer is always at the center of things." -- Giordano Bruno: "On Cause, Principle and Unity"

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#294873 - 12/11/02 02:27 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
ctsmith83 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 248
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Kommando XXX:
What "script?" Last I heard, Lobdell writes "Marvel style," which means he writes a loose plot, gives it to the artist (who does what he wants with it) then Lobdell has to find ways to dialogue the artwork.


There's a big difference between writing a plot that calls for a double page splash (pg 16-17) between Team T and Villian XYZ and ending up with pages 16 and 17 being two regular 8 panel grid pages with the Care Bears on the space shuttle. That's the kind of deviation from what was scripted that I mean. Just ask Lobdell.

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#294874 - 12/11/02 02:59 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
robdandy Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 125
Mr. Derek Watson,

I'm sorry if you interpreted my comments on the industry as condescending. If I was a single guy, I would simply draw comics and live life very differently. However, I have a family and most people try to maintain whatever lifestyle they establsish for themselves and their loved ones. Maybe if I didn't live in So Cal, things would be different, my nut would be smaller, but it's not. But if you had an opportunity to make more money wouldn't you pursue it? I think you would. As it stands I continue to invest in the comics industry and pay talent top rates for the work they do, and I could not afford to do so if I were reliant on the comics industry to do so. Irony at its best.

Anyway, how am I supposed to save enough cash to buy Marvel comics and fire Quesada and Jemas and install Jeph Loeb as Grand Poobah on freelancer page rates? Payouts on golden parachute contracts and executive salaries aren't cheap.

Steel, man o man, would I love to draw a kick-ass X-Force story. The industry is really missing a good heavy-on-the-hardware-action-book right now. Cable has never been so awful and pathetic. Darn shame.

The Cap numbers that ctsmith is seeking are a matter of public record, available from your Marvel or Diamond archives. They were quite fantastic and I'm damn proud of them. The Marvel brass was right about to assemble my run for a trade collection before the new regime arrived, so now there's no chance that will happen, but the Japanese Heroes Reborn trade editions are freaking beautiful!

Robbie from the block

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#294875 - 12/11/02 03:09 PM Re: UPDATED: ROB LIEFELD ON ALIAS, JJ ABRAMS AND HOLLYWOOD
ctsmith83 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 248
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by robdandy:
The Cap numbers that ctsmith is seeking are a matter of public record, available from your Marvel or Diamond archives. They were quite fantastic and I'm damn proud of them. The Marvel brass was right about to assemble my run for a trade collection before the new regime arrived, so now there's no chance that will happen, but the Japanese Heroes Reborn trade editions are freaking beautiful!


Well Rob, I brought up the Diamond numbers and you disputed them! You also said that your run sold more copies than any other run in history and that plain isn't true. You said YOU had the numbers to back up your claims and would dig through your records and provide them. Now you say that the Diamond numbers are a matter of record. It looks like you can't back up your own claims... Pity.

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