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#419705 - 01/12/05 05:03 PM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
Sean Murphy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/99
Posts: 1481
Loc: State of Confusion
So XH, you seem to be saying that it was a good idea to kill thousands of civilians, maim and wound tens of thousands more, not to mention the 1300+ dead Americans and counting, and the HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars this fiasco is costing, to send a message to the country next door? Good lord, you're a lunatic.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the justifications you're citing in that book are idiotic. We haven't "encircled" Saudi Arabia like some enemy we are containing. The country is still our ally, one we give military aid to. We had U.S. troops stationed in the country until the war started and we moved them into Iraq, fer chrissakes. And anyone from Saudi Arabia can still get on a plane and fly out to hatch mischief.

If we wanted to address the problem of terrorism being fostered in Saudi Arabia, there are a million ways we could have done so that have nothing to do with military action. For instance, we could have said we would eliminate all aid to the Saudis until they enact democratic reforms and address the massive inequality, poverty and unemployment in the country - though rich Saudis may fund terrorism, the ones who actually do the fighting and dying are drawn from the disaffected population of poor people with no future and nothing much to live for. But of course W would never do that, since his family is such good buddies with the Saudi ruling family.

Oh, by the way, the war as justified by Mr. Friedman was %100 percent illegal according to international law. Of course, you neocons never think law should apply to yourselves, do you?

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#419706 - 01/12/05 05:10 PM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
Paul O'Keefe Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 5308
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
Just like espionage and death squads and weapons of mutually assured destruction are only bad when it applies to other countries.
_________________________
"It's Like trying to get along [with] the Dino Bots while your Optimus Prime." ~The Last Starfighter

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#419707 - 01/12/05 05:28 PM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
Cisco Bunny Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 2280
Loc: New York City
To Bush's supporters, no amount of evidence could convince them this war was mistake. No WMD - "Doesn't matter! We did the right thing!" We're losing the war - "Doesn't matter! We did the right thing!"

The sad gospel truth is that most of Bush's supporters wouldn't bat an eye if Bush raped and murdered their mothers right in front of them. "It's a media conspiracy! Liberal college professors are to blame!"

It's an enviable political position that Bush is in. His followers will support ANYTHING he does without even thinking about it. They have already decided he is this messianic avenging cowboy, chosen by Jesus to defend them from the Evil Ones.

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#419708 - 01/12/05 05:57 PM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
X-height Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3923
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
"The Taliban War" (October-November 2001) - seems fairly obvious, deny Al-Q a Nation State - Just about evrything we read says that it is and was pan-national.
Nailing OBL in the mountains would have been sweet but that would not be the war would it.
what massive policy shifts have Iran and Saudi Arabia enacted that have actually made things better for the US since we invaded Iraq? Would Iran reinstating its nuclear program fall under this category of policy shifts?
I will quote Joshua Muravchik, Los Angeles Times, 2005/01/10
Quote:
For the Arab world, 2005 may be remembered as the year of the election. Today, Palestinians will choose a new president. Three weeks later, Iraqis will elect a national assembly. This will be only the beginning. Palestinians will go to the polls no fewer than three more times before the year is out, to elect municipal councils, a new legislative body and new leadership within Fatah, the dominant political party. ...
From February through April, Saudi Arabia will hold municipal elections throughout the kingdom, a landmark step of popular participation for an absolutist regime that has imprisoned academics merely for advocating constitutional monarchy.
This spring, Lebanon will hold parliamentary elections. These are nothing new, but for the first time, a multiethnic opposition to the Syrian puppet regime might actually win a significant share.
Late in the year, Egypt will hold parliamentary elections, the first step toward choosing a president. …
Iran - as you might note without a "Zionist" bugbear would be a threat to no one with or without its nukes its focus these days is regional Iraq and Afganistan.
Personally I think we are failing in bring out this Strategic goal in practice but they are spending their resources. When was the last time we heard from Hezbolla? On the plus side though there is talk of a Shiite threat to Sunni Islam, and a Persian threat to Iraq’s Arab identity, the most recent of which was Jordanian King Abdallah II’s statements about a ‘Shiite crescent’.

Who ever said that getting oil from the region had to be inconsistant with democracy? Are you suggesting Sean that lives are being wasted in bringing that change about?

Quote:
WMD vs. Draining the Swamps
When Bush charged Saddam Hussein with refusing to give up his weapons of mass destruction, he was relying in good faith on what the CIA—and every other intelligence agency in the world—assured him was the case. He was also acting in good faith when he warned that Saddam might put such weapons into the hands of terrorists, and when he then invoked this danger in an advance justification of the new policy of preemption ("If we wait for threats to fully materialize, we will have waited too long").
But there would be a heavy price to pay for placing so much stress on the issue of WMD. Not only did the failure to find them severely injure the case for invading Iraq; perhaps even more injurious was that the emphasis on WMD obscured the long-range strategic rationale for the invasion. For while the immediate objective was indeed to disarm Saddam Hussein, the larger one was to press on with "draining the swamps"—whether created by religious despots, as in Afghanistan, or by secular tyrants, as in Iraq—that were in Bush’s view the breeding-grounds of terrorism in the greater Middle East. Nor could those swamps be drained only by strong-arming the regimes under which they had been festering. It was also necessary in this view to replace these regimes with elected governments that would work to fulfill the hopes of "the peoples of the Islamic nations [who] who want and deserve the same freedoms and opportunities as people in every nation."
All this pretty much disappeared from the debate over Iraq in the months before the invasion. Nevertheless, it gradually sank in among the realists that they had been wrong in dismissing Afghanistan as a one-shot affair, and that disarming Saddam was not the be-all or the end-all of the invasion of Iraq. Hard though it was for them, they finally had to face up to the incredible fact that Bush had not just been making rhetorical noises when he said that his ultimate strategic aim was to push all the states in the greater Middle East—every last one of them—toward democracy.
Worse yet, there was no dissuading him by argument, not even when close advisers of his father like Brent Scowcroft and James Baker were telling him that it was a mistake to invade Iraq. Brainwashed (as the realists along with many others had concluded) by the neoconservative ideologues who had wormed their way into his mind, he refused to recognize that by far the most important obstacle to solving all our problems in the Middle East was not Saddam Hussein but Ariel Sharon. And he remained calmly impervious to the objection that pursuing his new doctrine of democratization would destabilize the region (maddeningly, he even responded that this was exactly what he wanted to do) and would also increase rather than lessen the danger of terrorism.
An interesting wrinkle in the story of the realist offensive against the Bush Doctrine is that it did not enlist the services of Henry Kissinger, the universally acknowledged leader of that school.
The War Against World War IV- Norman Podhoretz
_________________________
"The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us." (Paul Valery)

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#419709 - 01/12/05 06:26 PM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
X-height:

So, whenever we feel a regime is not sufficiently democratic, we have the right--nay, the moral duty--to step in and correct that? Indeed, we should do so not only for nations but entire regions?

I await the invasions of Thailand, some place in Central Africa, and dozens of other nations or regions throughout the world.

What's that you say? Not going to happen? Why not? Are not the nations of Southeast Asia just as dangerously undemocratic as those of the Middle East (in fact, some are more so)?

Could it be they have nothing we want? No oil? No strategic position straddling three continents? You mean, it's not the conditions of the people of Iraq, etc. we're concerned with, it's their geographic location?
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#419710 - 01/12/05 07:43 PM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
grendel824 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 2392
Loc: Mission Viejo, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by B. Michael White:


1. Bush and/or the intelligence agencies lied about the WMD and no longer care about keeping the facade with the American people post election OR:
No - there's no real convincing evidence to believe they lied about WMD. Just because you believe something to be true and say so with extreme confidence doesn't mean you were lying if it turns out to not be true.

Quote:

2. The government truly exhausted the search to no avail, meaning that we botched the job OR Saddam is smarter than the President.
I'm not sure what "truly exhausted the search to no avail" is supposed to mean. But there is no reason to believe this is true either. Either they never had WMD like we reasonably believed they did, or they got rid of it while we were pussy-footing around with the UN and giving them lots and lots of time to hide the evidence. You can't retroactively unjustify an action by providing new evidence that couldn't have been found out without that action, can you?

I for one always doubted that any WMD would be found - it seemed extremely likely that they didn't have much, and whatever they might have had could easily have been disposed of while we were giving them as much time as we could (though I still wouldn't be surprised if someone found some tomorrow, either). THAT was the major screw-up (well, letting them get that far in the first place, and HELPING them get there was the real screw-up - hopefully we've learned to stop arming third-world nations with first-world weapons and tactics, but somehow I doubt it...).

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#419711 - 01/12/05 10:36 PM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
B. Michael White Offline
Member

Registered: 09/25/01
Posts: 2123
Loc: Nowhere
Socko,

I'll be damned if I didn't catch the error at first. I JUST NOW noticed it. I thought you meant that the title was misleading....


Anyhow, I've changed Officoal to official.

I feel like a fucking retard.
_________________________
Black Adam in Infinite Crisis #6 (A'la Lawson):
"Now help me eat his eyeballs. Bitch"

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#419712 - 01/13/05 01:37 AM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
grendel824 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 2392
Loc: Mission Viejo, CA
Heh - I thought you were just leaving it misspelled to piss him off. Don't feel bad - if you were on the other side of the argument, your entire argument would be declared invalid because you made a typo, and you'd be followed from post to post by people telling everyone else how stupid you are because of it.

Anyway, one typo or a hundred thousand doesn't make your argument less valid, and it says nothing about your intelligence (unless you're one of the aforementioned hypocrite-stalker-types).

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#419713 - 01/13/05 01:45 AM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
Jimbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 2750
Loc: New Zealand/Canada
I haven't read all of the topic so you'll have to forgive me if someone already mentioned this.

If there were WMD's in Iraq what right did the U.S have to march in and go looking for them anyway? Does this mean that China or England could invade the U.S to take away their WMD's which we all know for fact are there?

Don't get me wrong, I love America as a people and a country but the Government seems to believe they rule the world. Every Government is fairly useless in its own right, the U.S one is just the most arrogant.
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#419714 - 01/13/05 01:59 AM Re: Official: No WMD in Iraq
Brian Bell Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 298
Loc: U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by B. Michael White:
U.S. calls off fruitless search for weapons

So does this mean that it is also official that our reason for invading Iraq REALLY WAS just a big lie?
My money is on big lie, but complete and utter idiocy probably has equivalent odds.

It's unbelievable almost, isn't it? They sell this useless war on the idea that the WMD in Iraq are some kind of threat to Iraq and its "neighbors," yet excepting perhaps Israel's Likud Party, none -- NONE -- of Iraq's neighbors wanted this war and there are no WMD. And now, the right offers up feeble excuses about how the Iraqis needed our wonderous gift of democracy at the barrel of a gun, or that it was somehow connected to al Qaeda, when even Bush says he knows Iraq didn't attack us on 9-11. Disgusting.

X-height and the book he mentions, America's Secret War by George Friedman, may be correct about the real reasons behind the war, but they are surely wrong about the results thus far, and I don't see it getting any better.

Well, America's getting our asses handed back to us on a platter, and stretching out before us as far as I can see is an atrocious disaster of a war, while Osama B. laughs at us.

I'm hoping my bitterness will keep me warm this winter.
_________________________
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
-- Jerry Garcia

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