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#421155 - 05/15/05 06:03 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
David Porta Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
.

Psychologist Richard DiNapoli's data indicates that, among college students, the nearer they are to graduation:

The men students are increasingly concerned about whether or not they have secured career employment.

The women students are increasingly concerned about whether or not they have secured a husband.

Ah, higher education. A noble pursuit. Why go to college? For the pure sake of learning, of course!

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#421156 - 05/15/05 06:29 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
Sean Murphy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/99
Posts: 1481
Loc: State of Confusion
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ChrisW:
Hey Sean, do you have any idea where Harvard is going to get the resources to make men equal to women?
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Gee Chris, last I heard Harvard was a pretty wealthy institution. I'm sure they could adjust their payroll so that women got paid the same as men for equivalent work without putting too big a dent in their budget. I know, you wanted to assume that something had to be taken away from the men for equality to be achieved, but that's because you've got a huge amount of issues regarding women and money. For instance:


quote:
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Originally posted by ChrisW:
What do you think European women did when their men brought back the first chocolate from the New World? "I want more. Now." "But honey, I have to cross an ocean and kill a bunch of people?"

When she wants chocolate, dammit, no worthwhile man is going to deny it. Or the silk from China (used to make fancy clothes). Or gold and jewels from wherever they can be found. But women like it, who knows why, and men see it as a duty to get it for them.
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Between comments like that and this lovely one:

quote:
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Originally posted by ChrisW:

Because women need doormats, not challenges. They don't like challenges.
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it's obvious that you really have problems with women in general. I still think it has something to do with your parents. Anyway, your clear misogynist bias makes debating the issue with you not worth the effort, though it was interesting seeing your true attitude surface as this thread went on.

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#421157 - 05/15/05 07:10 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
David Porta Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
Gee Chris, your clear misogynist bias
.

Since when does invoking sexual stereotypes constitute misogyny?

Romance novels have made an industry out of invoking sexual stereotypes, and that industry is very profitable. Guess who the customers are? And they don't mind.

The fact is, we all use stereotypes in our minds all the time, and with good reason.

"Look out! It's a snake!"

Most snakes slither away, are harmless. Some big ones bite. Some of the ones that bite, are venomous.

"Look out! It's a snake!"

Stereotyping? Sure enough! And with good reason.

You, on the other hand, might object that sounding an alarm is herp-ist. (Like misogynic, except for snakes.) Go ahead. I'll pray over you, and anoint you with oil and lay on hands, as you lie dying.

Stereotypes contain useful elements of truth. It is not any kind of bigotry to use them properly, in context. The context here, these boards, this thread: the use of sexual stereotypes, to illustrate a point, is quite consistent with the context.

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#421158 - 05/21/05 03:46 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Hey Sean, do you have any idea where Harvard is going to get the resources to make men equal to women?
Gee Chris, last I heard Harvard was a pretty wealthy institution. I'm sure they could adjust their payroll so that women got paid the same as men for equivalent work without putting too big a dent in their budget.


They do get paid the same for equivalent work. Haven't you been paying attention? The demand is for Harvard to hire and retain more women.

And it's so easy to say 'they're rich, they can spend money'.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.harvard17may17,1,7763470.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines&ctrack=1&cset=true
Summers committed his school to spending $50 million on a range of programs over the next decade - from mentoring to child care to safe, late-night transport - that were recommended by two task forces he appointed at the height of the crisis.

$50 million dollars. Is that coming out of Larry's pocket? Nancy's pocket? Government grants? Or will the students have to pay for it.

But he committed to starting others immediately, such as hiring a new senior administrator to oversee faculty diversity efforts.

Two predictions:
1: This new senior administrator will not be a man. It's possible there will be some token interviews of men, but it will be a woman.

2: Anybody who thinks the genders are biologically different will not be considered for the job. Because, you know, they want "diversity". :rolleyes:

Sean, I notice you haven't disputed (a) that chocolate came from the New World (b) that women really like chocolate (c) that when they want chocolate, they really want it (d) men who get women what they want are more likely to get laid/married and (e) men had to sail across the ocean and settle the New World in order for Europe to receive the delights.

Originally posted by ChrisW:
What do you think European women did when their men brought back the first chocolate from the New World? "I want more. Now." "But honey, I have to cross an ocean and kill a bunch of people?"

Because women need doormats, not challenges. They don't like challenges.
it's obvious that you really have problems with women in general. I still think it has something to do with your parents. Anyway, your clear misogynist bias makes debating the issue with you not worth the effort, though it was interesting seeing your true attitude surface as this thread went on.

Obviously you prefer being a doormat. And you enjoy making up falsehoods about other people. It's too bad your husband is stuck with you for life. I bet if you had run away like Jennifer Wilbanks had before the wedding, he wouldn't be nearly as stupid in taking you bank as Jennifer's fiance is being.
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#421159 - 05/21/05 03:51 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
Charles Reece Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10002
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Quote:
Since when does invoking sexual stereotypes constitute misogyny?

Romance novels have made an industry out of invoking sexual stereotypes, and that industry is very profitable. Guess who the customers are? And they don't mind.

The fact is, we all use stereotypes in our minds all the time, and with good reason.

"Look out! It's a snake!"

Most snakes slither away, are harmless. Some big ones bite. Some of the ones that bite, are venomous.

"Look out! It's a snake!"

Stereotyping? Sure enough! And with good reason.
"Look out! It's a woman!"
_________________________
The Gospel, wherein much Truth is written.

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#421160 - 05/21/05 05:40 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
Sean Murphy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/99
Posts: 1481
Loc: State of Confusion
Struck a nerve there, didn't I ChrisW? If you'll notice, I qualified my theories on why you seem to think women are golddigging bitches with an "I think". I'm just assuming that since you've obviously never had a girlfriend or anything, your opinions of women must have been shaped by your childhood experiences. Please feel free to correct me on the real reason you don't like women anytime, if that's not the case. Anyway, I think your anger suggests that I'm more right than you'd like to admit.

And once again, I'm really sorry that you think that a man who doesn't want to dominate women has to therefore be dominated by women. It is possible to have a relationship between equals, you know. Like I said before, I suggest you start therapy immediately.

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#421161 - 05/21/05 11:20 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
Mal Reynolds Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 53
Of course men and women are biologically different. 'Course, that's speakin' on average. FAT men and women, well, that gets a might trickier.
_________________________
Sure as I know anything, I know this -- I aim to misbehave.

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#421162 - 05/22/05 12:06 AM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
geedis Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/00
Posts: 13263
Loc: AZ
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
It is possible to have a relationship between equals, you know.
Possible, but highly improbable.
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Comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable

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#421163 - 05/22/05 03:02 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Sean is definitely Cisco Bunny.

*If I repeat that Chris doesn't like women often enough, it becomes true* :rolleyes:
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#421164 - 05/22/05 03:18 PM Re: "Men and women are biologically different"
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
http://www.ukmm.org.uk/issues/suppression/nl.htm

Ten years ago my life took a peculiar turn. From December 1990 until the middle of the decade, the common round was regularly spiced with unusual surprise.

One day, I would open a newspaper and find it telling the world that I must be impotent. Another day, I would read that I must have a little penis. While I was eating lunch at home with the woman I lived with, her eyes might drift over the page of a magazine and, seeing my name, she would read that I obviously couldn't get a girlfriend.

Walking through the aisle of a commuter train, going to the buffet car to get coffee, I would suddenly realise that many of my fellow passengers, casually turning the pages of their morning newspaper, were yawning over photographs from my wedding in 1977 and glancing at banner headlines which told them I had gone off my trolley.

In the middle of a winter evening, as we were dishing up our dinner, the doorbell would ring at the remote house in Suffolk, two miles down a farm track, where I lived with my girlfriend and her children and we would find a tabloid reporter and her minder standing on the step and saying: "We thought we'd just drop in." Turning on the radio on a Saturday morning, just as I was winding myself up to an attack on the household heap of ironing, I would hear Ned Sherrin observe as an aside that I was obviously very seriously disturbed by personal problems.

These unusual experiences came my way because I had written some articles and a book. The first and most controversial of these articles was a 5,000-word essay published in The Sunday Times Magazine in December 1990. That essay was given the title (which I felt to be misleading) "Badmouthing". In it, I committed the offence of writing sceptically, even disrespectfully, about feminism. I raised some doubts about the central claims of feminism and I questioned some of the fundamental tenets of its ideology.

Writing articles and books is my work. It is what I have done for 30 years and what I expect to do for the rest of my life. Until December 1990, I was among the highest-paid and best-established feature writers in British journalism, contributing regularly to every "quality" paper and writing about everything from sport to music, from politics to books. I had written the Atticus column in this newspaper. I wrote columns, profiles and feature articles in The Times, The Independent, the Evening Standard and many others. After Badmouthing, however, I became a pariah, a professional and social outcast. My income plummeted from many thousands of pounds a month to hundreds. In the whole year of 1993, I earned less money in total than I had earned each month in 1989.

I had achieved something that may be unique in our age: I had committed an unpardonable heresy.

In an era of no faiths, no moral certainties and no saints, it is almost impossible to say something that so outrages a common creed that its author will be banished or ostracised. Any view or opinion is permissible on the monarchy, the church, political leaders and other public figures. Treason has been abolished. Indecency does not exist. There are, effectively, no limits remaining on the licence extended to entertainers. Yet my writing resulted not only in my professional ruin: it also made me an untouchable. Over the 20 years of my career before Badmouthing, I had made friends with many fashionable people - writers, actors, sports and television celebrities, some of the best-known names in the media here and in America. After Badmouthing, most of these people cut off all connection with me and have never contacted me since. Neighbours looked the other way when they saw me in the street and strangers shifted away from me on the Underground. These things happened. Truly.

What had I said? What could I have written that was so violently offensive? The starting-point for this essay was to say that an atmosphere of intolerance surrounded men. In advertising, in entertainment and in the news media, it had become commonplace for men collectively to be seen as mentally and culturally inferior - idiotic, im-practical, ineducable, violent and slobbish by nature and incapable of love both as husbands and fathers. My article was probably the first to be published in a major newspaper in the West which said that the routine separation of tens of thousands of children from their fathers through the divorce courts was the most serious human rights issue of our time. I think I was the first journalist to suggest that boys, not girls, might share a collective disadvantage in schools. And Badmouthing was definitely the first article in the national media to observe that, while women's illnesses were the focus of immense concentration and spending on research, illnesses that affected men only, such as prostate cancer, were ignored by medical science.

Many of those observations are now commonly accepted. Government campaigns urge men to be screened and to check themselves for prostate cancer. The position of boys in education and of young men in employment is generally agreed to be a subject for concern. The divorce courts are, broadly speaking, a little more protective towards the relationship between children and their fathers. Looking back on what was published then, I think most people would now feel that the arguments I advanced were reasonable and the evidence I produced was sound.

So what was the trouble? If the essay had concentrated only on the dilemmas and difficulties of modern men and boys, it might have excited debate but probably not uproar.

But I went further. I connected the intolerance that was allowed towards men and the neglect of their disadvantages to the universal dominance of feminism. We could not see that men truly did share some serious social disadvantages, I argued, because feminism had appropriated all gender inequalities to women. If we lived in the society generally described by feminists - a patriarchal society organised by men for the benefit of men - it was impossible in logic for inequalities for men to exist at all. My article was received, therefore, as an assault on the foundations of feminism - and, indeed, that is exactly what I had intended it to be. It followed that, if everybody agreed feminism was correct, there must be something wrong with me. I must be mad. Or morally defective. Or several inches short in the penis. Or sexually inadequate. Perhaps my wife had left me. Or I couldn't get a girlfriend. It certainly was not possible that I might be right on some points or might have a good case in general. That possibility was unthinkable. Everybody at that time either agreed with the essential propositions of feminism or had the good sense to keep quiet. As my treatment was to show, any voice that was raised in dissent would be silenced.

George Orwell once wrote that "the Catholic and the Communist are alike in assuming that an opponent cannot be both honest and intelligent". Feminists, being the disciples of a creed, adherents of a faith, share the same attitude and assumptions. Because I had attacked their holiest of holies, because I was a barbarian who had broken into their temple and turned over the altar, I had let myself in for the contemporary equivalent of a tarring and feathering.

Even before my article was published, it had caused unprecedented trouble. A group of women who worked for The Sunday Times Magazine wrote a round-robin to the magazine's then editor, Philip Clarke, asking him not publish my essay and warning that it would leave "an indelible stain" on the magazine's reputation. Some of those women had not, in fact, read my article but that did not hold them back in their condemnation and censoriousness - a pattern to be repeated constantly in the years ahead. Clarke stoutly told them to mind their own business.
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