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#426785 - 05/16/05 06:25 PM Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050515190109990003&ncid=NWS00010000000001

To quote Jason Priestly in Quatum Leap: Defintely not cool.
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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#426786 - 05/16/05 06:49 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Defintely not cool.
.

Ya, that's what this guy Larry thinks, too.

Quote:
Joshua Freed, AP:

Parishioner Larry Pavlicek was not sympathetic [to those using the communion altar to protest against church teaching]. As a divorced man, he said he has accepted living with the church's teaching that he cannot remarry and cannot have sex outside of marriage.
Quote:
They're trying to change something that has been taught by the church for 2,000 years. If you're going to be a Catholic, either live with Church doctrine or call yourself something different.
Cool.

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#426787 - 05/16/05 07:01 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 2795
Loc: Milky Way
Quote:
Originally posted by David Porta:
[QUOTE][qb]They're trying to change something that has been taught by the church for 2,000 years. If you're going to be a Catholic, either live with Church doctrine or call yourself something different.
Actually, I agree that if you join something, and you know going in, you should be a bit more accepting (of course, most Catholics are not choosing the faith, the had to practice it as children and know nothing else). Of course, I also agree that people would leave the Cahtolic church alone if they did what they did and left everyone alone and didn't preach and have Pope's telling us what we should and shouldn't do. smile I still stand by my original thought that denying communion to people merely supporting a cause, well, I believe that is the seed that will led to the church's losing of more and more members in the 21st century. A church that had a gay Pope in it's history should keep it's mouth shut.
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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#426788 - 05/16/05 07:31 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Most Catholics are not choosing the faith. They had to practice it as children and know nothing else.
.

They know options than Martin Luther did not (and he broke free of the Church). They live in a world that has had Protestant denominations world-wide for centuries. These American RCs probably grew up with Protestant neighbors, a diversity of churches (and non-Christian creeds and ways, such as Jewish, agnoistic, zen) in their villages, towns, and cities. Their parents may have had friends who were Protestant or Jewish. They had TV and radio and records and movies and books. They know that changing their denominational affiliation is an alternative which is open to them. Or just leaving the Church. Dad was raised RC, the son of immigrant Italians in a working-class Italian neighborhood. He left the Church at 18. Chose agnosticism. Not unheard of.

What do you think Confirmation is? It is the Church's way of recognizing that the individual is of sufficient maturity to confirm his or her faith or lack thereof.

"Most Catholics are not choosing the faith," you say? They choose the faith every time they approach the altar. Except, of course, when they use the altar as a platform to proclaim their unrepentant hearts.

Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Denying communion to people merely supporting a cause
.

That cause happens to be contrary to the teachings of the Church. Confirmation, and membership in the Church carries with it conscious assent to the Church's teachings.

I will not join the RCC because it's teaching wrt "faith alone" are wrong.

These folks wanna call themselves RC, but want the RCC to change to suit them. Cafeteria Catholics.

Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
is the seed that will lead to the church's losing more and more members in the 21st century.
.

Why do folks who reject the Bible always argue that the reason the Church should also reject the Bible is to keep from losing members? I mean, if, like me, you reject the Church's teaching because they are false, wouldn't you want the Church to lose members? For the sake of what you believe?

Oh, but that's right, it is probably the case that people who reject the Bible do not believe in anything.

In any event, fidelity to Scripture in a matter such as this (the issue here is not "faith alone," but, rather, "the sin of homosexual copulation," which the RCC and my Protestant denomination are in agreement on) is the backbone of a strong membership. It is the denominations that reject scripture which ultimately lose members.

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#426789 - 05/16/05 07:42 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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Posts: 2795
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Porta:
[QB]They know options than Martin Luther did not (and he broke free of the Church). They live in a world that has had Protestant denominations world-wide for centuries. They know that changing their denominational affiliation is an alternative which is open to them.

It's a lot easier to say that you can change something that you were born into and raised with than actually doing it. It's possible, but usually involves a lot.


These folks wanna call themselves RC, but want the RCC to change to suit them. Cafeteria Catholics.

Actually, that's the best argument I've ever heard for the abolishment of all churches. Cool.


Oh, but that's right, it is probably the case that people who reject the Bible do not believe in anything.

I enjoy debating with you, but, the above seems rather condensending. If you would like to intelligently debate, that's cool, otherwise we can go seperate ways.

In any event, fidelity to Scripture in matter such as this (the issue here is not "faith alone," but, rather, "the sin of homosexual copulation," which the RCC and my Protestant denomination are in agreement on) is the backbone of a strong membership. It is the denominations that reject scripture which ultimately lose members.

Seems to me, that if the church doesn't want to give communion to a homosexual because they believe it's a sin, that's their choice because they believe it to be a sin; however, to deny it to those who merely support the homosexuals seems that they have forgotten something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin. Seems like the supporters are loving the sinner
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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#426790 - 05/16/05 08:43 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
It's a lot easier to say that you can change something that you were born into and raised with than actually doing it. It's possible, but usually involves a lot.
.

Dad was raised RC, the son of immigrant Italians in a working-class Italian neighborhood in Brockton, Mass. He left the Church at 18. Chose agnosticism. Not unheard of.

It "involves a lot," you say? Well, ya! And violating the altar doesn't?

Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Seems to me that, if the church doesn't want to give communion to a homosexual because they believe it's a sin, that's their choice because they believe it to be a sin; however, to deny it to those who merely support the homosexuals seems that they have forgotten something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin. Seems like the supporters are loving the sinner.
.

Ah, where to begin.

1. "something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin"

While that is the message of the Bible, it doesn't actually say that. There is no such verse. But, that is the message. "All have sinned" "Love thy neighbor." But there is no verse that actually says, "love the sinner hate the sin." That is not "something said in their bible." It is a modern slogan. It sums up Bible teaching.

I start with that, because it reveals your need of a religious education. Next, onto the other stuff.

2. What are you referring to when you write, "they believe it's a sin"? The RCC, along with every other world-class denomination and religion, teaches that the behavior is the sin.

3. "if the church doesn't want to give communion to a homosexual because they believe it's a sin, that's their choice because they believe it to be a sin"

Communion comes after cofession and repentance.

If a homosexual confesses homosexual copulation, and repents it, the priest absolves him, then the homosexual may approach the altar with a clear conscience, and receive communion.

A susceptability to sinful desires (in this case, homosexual desire, i.e., in newspeak's non-behavioral definition, his being "a homosexual") does not bar one from communion.

4. "however, to deny it to those who merely support the homosexuals seems that they have forgotten something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin. Seems like the supporters are loving the sinner."

It isn't about homosexuals, per se. It is about folks rejecting the church teaching that says the act of homosexual sex is a sin. It is about homosexuals refusing to call their sexual sin a sin, refusing to confess it as a sin, refusing to repent the sinful behavior; and just rejecting the Church's doctrine.

"Those who merely support the homosexuals" are joining with the homosexuals in rejecting the Church's doctrine.

---------

The taking of Communion conveys spiritual benefit, if taken with a proper heart. Taken improperly can be deadly. So, who do you say loves the sinner? The one who seeks to preserve him from harm? Or the one who joins him in seeking to be harmed?

Quote:
1 Corinthians 11: 27-32

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.

For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [died].

But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
.

The message of this Bible passage is clear. It is the reason most churches will not offer communion to non-believers. It is the reason the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod practices close communion. Only those who are close to us in belief, in the beliefs that we confess, and are penitent, are offered communion. It is the reason that the RCC refuses communion to non-Catholics, and to the impenitent, generally.

Communion is not "merely" a club ritual. It is a matter of life and death. It is guarded with all the seriousness which that entails.

Quote:
Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are sick.

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#426791 - 05/16/05 09:38 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Brian Bell Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 298
Loc: U.S.A.
What a crock.

Well, it's a Sacrament, not a legal right. The priest can deny Communion to anyone he wants to deny it to -- it's his call, and his bishop's or archbishop's call.

Primacy of the conscience.

These parishners' conscience has the same primacy, and if their conscience is telling them gays have rights and deserve support, no matter what this Church may say -- and I'm not aware of any infallible statements on the matter, for which a wide variety of criteria is required -- they can still be good Catholics and feel the way they do about gay rights.

All these parishners really need to do is find a more gay-friendly parish, no need to leave the Church. They should try a Jesuit mission or something. Plenty of Churches out there, at the very least, are far less interested in politics and more interested in the spirit. No need to go where you're not welcome.

Although, truthfully, they were being intentionally provocative. What did they expect? It wasn't a nice thing to do to that priest, no matter what his views are. They put him in an awkward position. That's not terribly nice. The altar is not for political fights, and that goes for both sides.

Also, Porta, you don't know a thing about Catholic theology, do you? Two weeks ago our problem was works not faith, and now our problem is faith not works. Make up your mind.
_________________________
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
-- Jerry Garcia

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#426792 - 05/16/05 10:34 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Bell:
If a parishner's conscience is telling him gays have rights and deserve support, they can still be good Catholics and feel the way they do about gay rights.
.

If a parishoner supports civil rights for all, that's no sin.

If he rejects RCC doctrine, he has no business taking RC Communion.

.

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#426793 - 05/16/05 11:22 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Brian Bell Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 298
Loc: U.S.A.
Primacy of conscience, Porta. Only infallibility or direct quotes from Jesus can trump that.

You have no idea what Catholic theology has to say on these matters, exactly. So, either convert and learn, or give it up.
_________________________
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
-- Jerry Garcia

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#426794 - 05/16/05 11:22 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 2795
Loc: Milky Way
Originally posted by David Porta:
I start with that, because it reveals your need of a religious education.

Wow. The left talk to you like you're an idiot and the right talk to you like you're an idiot. And there are those who wonder why most of America could care less about voting. Because you can't have a discussion without being told you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and need to be educated to the "right" way of thinking.

No wonder Jesus didn't want to hang around with us.
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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#426795 - 05/17/05 04:04 AM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Bell:
You have no idea what Catholic theology has to say on these matters, exactly.
.

I'll take that to mean that you have no specific beef with my explanations of RC doctrine. You can't refute me, because what I wrote is correct.

How it does chap your hide that I am right!

Tsk tsk tsk. Poor boo.

.

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#426796 - 05/17/05 08:48 AM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Brian Bell Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 298
Loc: U.S.A.
Um, yes, Porta, I have "specific" beefs with your explanations of Catholic doctrine in regards to the matter of homosexual rights and their supporters, and I am refuting the gist of most of your content in regards to these parishners.

PRIMACY OF CONSCIENCE. Got that? That's specific Catholic doctrine and theology. Obviously, you haven't heard of it, because if you did, you'd know what I'm saying. But you don't understand it. It appears you don't understand infallibility either and the difference between that and teachings. You're ignorant, truly ignorant, and it's showing.

These parishners can still be perfectly good Catholics. They just need to find a more welcoming parish and be a little less political at the altar.
_________________________
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
-- Jerry Garcia

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#426797 - 05/17/05 12:41 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Dumas Offline
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Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 6777
Loc: Melnibone
Isn't it more than a little unethical to deny people something that is essential for their spiritual well-being over a political difference?

At the first communion, all Jesus said was "Do this is remembrance of me."

Well, he said a lot of other stuff about his death and Judas and the nature of the afterlife... but you get what I mean.

But as far as communion goes, He didn't have much to say beside "Do this in remembrance of me."

He didn't say, for example, that "It's okay to use this as a means of control over your congregation by denying them the right to participate if they do something you don't like."
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#426798 - 05/17/05 01:00 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Paul Herden Offline
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Since you're such a fan of Corinthians, Mr. Porta, how about justifying your judgemental viewpoint with the following passage?

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside.
--1 Corinthians 5

Mommmmmm, when is Final Judgement getting heeeere already? I'm impatient!

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#426799 - 05/17/05 01:12 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Dumas Offline
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I guess in this case, it depends on what you define as inside the church.

Anyway, stuff like this makes me glad I'm a protestant. My pastor has absolutely no right to deny me communion. The most he can do is make me feel guilty if I need to repent about something first.
_________________________
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#426800 - 05/17/05 02:12 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Dumas:
Anyway, stuff like this makes me glad I'm a protestant. My pastor has absolutely no right to deny me communion.
.

What denomination is that?

Every church has the legal right to withold the eucharist, and may withold at the church's discretion. Who is entrusted with the authority, within the congregation or denomination, may differ, I suppose: board of elders, pastor, etc.

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#426801 - 05/17/05 02:22 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Charles Reece Offline
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Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
That sounds suspiciously like an authority mediating your supposedly personal relationship with God.
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#426802 - 05/17/05 02:23 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Dumas Offline
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Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 6777
Loc: Melnibone
I'm non-denominational and my pastor doesn't believe in denying anyone the right to participate.

He just gives a speech first about how you should only take the elements (usually unleavened cracker fragments and watery grape juice) if you are a converted believer and you have prepared your heart by asking for forgiveness for anything going on in your personal life that requires forgiveness.

I'm oversimplifying a little... but if my pastor has the legal right to keep anyone from participating, he certainly doesn't exercise it.
_________________________
It's probably best to buy name brand razor blades.
-- comedian Todd Barry, on buying razor blades

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#426803 - 05/17/05 06:11 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Paul Herden Offline
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A sudden vow of silence, Mr. Porta?

Yeah, I didn't think you would want to play dueling Bible quotes. One can use scripture to explicitly prove just about anything that one needs proved, and that's before you start hitting the multiple translations.

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#426804 - 05/17/05 07:00 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Brian Bell Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 298
Loc: U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dumas:
Isn't it more than a little unethical to deny people something that is essential for their spiritual well-being over a political difference?...
I think so. But, according to the various rules of Catholicism, the priest is allowed to do what he did.

By the same token, it does not make these people he denied Communion to bad Catholics.

Only that priest has "officially" decided they were bad Catholics, no one else has.

Which is why I said, they ought to just find a more gay-friendly or less political parish.

I think, though, they were looking for a political fight, which I think is kind of wrong of them. They were looking to challenge this particular Church. That's really not very nice of them to do.
_________________________
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
-- Jerry Garcia

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#426805 - 05/17/05 10:18 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
geedis Offline
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Registered: 11/28/00
Posts: 13263
Loc: AZ
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Herden:
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside.
--1 Corinthians 5

Mommmmmm, when is Final Judgement getting heeeere already? I'm impatient!
Corinthians is the part of the Bible that seems to get glossed over. I think it may be because of the sections which can be interpreted to condone witchcraft. That's what the witches tell me anyway.
_________________________
Comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable

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#426806 - 05/18/05 09:37 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Herden:

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside.
--1 Corinthians 5
.

Yeah? Gay Supporters were Denied Communion. They were in church.

.

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#426807 - 05/19/05 11:58 AM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
SteveK Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 312
To me those passages of Corinthians are pretty cut and dried. As in, if your not a Christian you don't have to adhere to Christian principles. Say's God will handle that, and it's my hunch by taking in other passages of the New Testament that by "God handling" it, it won't be a rosy outcome. Conversely though, if you are a Christian you are to be held accountable according to Christian doctirne, which clearly shuns homosexuality. Basically if your not Christian you indeed had better live it up now, because what lies ahead is not "happily ever after".

And you guys stance on communion is a bit skewwed too. You are supposed to repent of sin and cleanse your heart prior to taking any sacrement. The Bible is implicit when it details the punishment for taking communion with an impure heart. Sounds to me like these congregants were about to partake in communion without repentence, which is a major no-no. Someone mentioned earlier that "it's wrong to deny communion becasue of politics", and i guess that's so, but they are totally unrelated. It's not a political question at that point, it's theologic. And with the forwarned punishment being seperation from God, on an eternal basis, i would hope my pastor, priest, or reverand would withhold it if he knew my heart was not repentant. Again it looks like a case were pratitioners would rather simply change church doctrine than have to live up to it's mandates. Gotta so though, in our "easy way" society, i'm not totally shocked.
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#426808 - 05/19/05 06:31 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Paul Herden Offline
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Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 1859
Loc: location
Quote:
Originally posted by David Porta:
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Herden:
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside.
--1 Corinthians 5
.
Yeah? Gay Supporters were Denied Communion. They were in church.
.
Is this for real? "Outside the church" means "OUTSIDE" the church to you?

So if 20 gay men decided to conduct an orgy on Easter Sunday, but restricted their activities to the front lawn and driveway outside your church? That'd be acceptable behavior and none of your concern, according to your view of Corinthians scripture?

Does "as ye sow, so shall ye reap" apply only to religious farmers now? Do you have to be a talking sheep to say "The Lord is my shepherd"?

O Jesus, deliver us from nudniks.

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#426809 - 05/19/05 08:24 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Herden:
Is this for real?
.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Or are you really that stupid?

I responded to a quote about not judging non-Christians. The thread-topic folks in question don't fall in that category. The priest judged the fitness of Christians (in church, in the church, members of the church, church folk, are you a total idiot) to receive communion.

Stupidity.

.

.

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#426810 - 05/19/05 09:52 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Paul Herden Offline
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Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 1859
Loc: location
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Herden-- 5/17, post #14:
Since you're such a fan of Corinthians, Mr. Porta, how about justifying your judgemental viewpoint with the following passage?
(
quote from 1 Corinthians 5)
A lovely deflection, but the actual question was about you, Mr. Porta. I've requoted it for your convenience.

I posted the Corinthians passage following your endorsement of Corinthians, in light of your judgemental viewpoint.

How do you reconcile your belief in the cited scripture with your superior disdain for other faiths?

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#426811 - 05/21/05 05:11 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Paul Herden Offline
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Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 1859
Loc: location
Dear Dave,

As you've returned to this board multiple times since my previous post, leaving a dozen messages on a half-dozen threads, can I assume that you've decided not to answer the above question?

I don't want to make the wrong assumption, you know, what with my being so stupid and all. I mean, I'm so dumb, I actually thought American women from the mid-19th century on used douches and IUDs and cervical caps and diaphragms to thwart unwanted pregnancy. What a dope I am! It took a shrewd historian like you to explain to me that Americans have traditionally opposed contraception, and were only using those devices to prevent disease.

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#426812 - 05/22/05 12:11 AM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
geedis Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/00
Posts: 13263
Loc: AZ
.

Only God can create nudniks. He doesn't do it to annoy you, he just thinks it's really funny.

Replace your own thoughts with Bible quotes.

.
_________________________
Comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable

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#426813 - 05/22/05 01:51 AM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Paul Herden Offline
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Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 1859
Loc: location
Davey, Davey, Davey,

Have I not written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
--Proverbs 22:20-21

No? No answer? What a convenient time for you to demonstrate (at long last) that you have an "ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." (Peter 3:4)

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