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#426785 - 05/16/05 06:25 PM Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 2795
Loc: Milky Way
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050515190109990003&ncid=NWS00010000000001

To quote Jason Priestly in Quatum Leap: Defintely not cool.
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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#426786 - 05/16/05 06:49 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Defintely not cool.
.

Ya, that's what this guy Larry thinks, too.

Quote:
Joshua Freed, AP:

Parishioner Larry Pavlicek was not sympathetic [to those using the communion altar to protest against church teaching]. As a divorced man, he said he has accepted living with the church's teaching that he cannot remarry and cannot have sex outside of marriage.
Quote:
They're trying to change something that has been taught by the church for 2,000 years. If you're going to be a Catholic, either live with Church doctrine or call yourself something different.
Cool.

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#426787 - 05/16/05 07:01 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 2795
Loc: Milky Way
Quote:
Originally posted by David Porta:
[QUOTE][qb]They're trying to change something that has been taught by the church for 2,000 years. If you're going to be a Catholic, either live with Church doctrine or call yourself something different.
Actually, I agree that if you join something, and you know going in, you should be a bit more accepting (of course, most Catholics are not choosing the faith, the had to practice it as children and know nothing else). Of course, I also agree that people would leave the Cahtolic church alone if they did what they did and left everyone alone and didn't preach and have Pope's telling us what we should and shouldn't do. smile I still stand by my original thought that denying communion to people merely supporting a cause, well, I believe that is the seed that will led to the church's losing of more and more members in the 21st century. A church that had a gay Pope in it's history should keep it's mouth shut.
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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#426788 - 05/16/05 07:31 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Most Catholics are not choosing the faith. They had to practice it as children and know nothing else.
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They know options than Martin Luther did not (and he broke free of the Church). They live in a world that has had Protestant denominations world-wide for centuries. These American RCs probably grew up with Protestant neighbors, a diversity of churches (and non-Christian creeds and ways, such as Jewish, agnoistic, zen) in their villages, towns, and cities. Their parents may have had friends who were Protestant or Jewish. They had TV and radio and records and movies and books. They know that changing their denominational affiliation is an alternative which is open to them. Or just leaving the Church. Dad was raised RC, the son of immigrant Italians in a working-class Italian neighborhood. He left the Church at 18. Chose agnosticism. Not unheard of.

What do you think Confirmation is? It is the Church's way of recognizing that the individual is of sufficient maturity to confirm his or her faith or lack thereof.

"Most Catholics are not choosing the faith," you say? They choose the faith every time they approach the altar. Except, of course, when they use the altar as a platform to proclaim their unrepentant hearts.

Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Denying communion to people merely supporting a cause
.

That cause happens to be contrary to the teachings of the Church. Confirmation, and membership in the Church carries with it conscious assent to the Church's teachings.

I will not join the RCC because it's teaching wrt "faith alone" are wrong.

These folks wanna call themselves RC, but want the RCC to change to suit them. Cafeteria Catholics.

Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
is the seed that will lead to the church's losing more and more members in the 21st century.
.

Why do folks who reject the Bible always argue that the reason the Church should also reject the Bible is to keep from losing members? I mean, if, like me, you reject the Church's teaching because they are false, wouldn't you want the Church to lose members? For the sake of what you believe?

Oh, but that's right, it is probably the case that people who reject the Bible do not believe in anything.

In any event, fidelity to Scripture in a matter such as this (the issue here is not "faith alone," but, rather, "the sin of homosexual copulation," which the RCC and my Protestant denomination are in agreement on) is the backbone of a strong membership. It is the denominations that reject scripture which ultimately lose members.

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#426789 - 05/16/05 07:42 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 2795
Loc: Milky Way
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Porta:
[QB]They know options than Martin Luther did not (and he broke free of the Church). They live in a world that has had Protestant denominations world-wide for centuries. They know that changing their denominational affiliation is an alternative which is open to them.

It's a lot easier to say that you can change something that you were born into and raised with than actually doing it. It's possible, but usually involves a lot.


These folks wanna call themselves RC, but want the RCC to change to suit them. Cafeteria Catholics.

Actually, that's the best argument I've ever heard for the abolishment of all churches. Cool.


Oh, but that's right, it is probably the case that people who reject the Bible do not believe in anything.

I enjoy debating with you, but, the above seems rather condensending. If you would like to intelligently debate, that's cool, otherwise we can go seperate ways.

In any event, fidelity to Scripture in matter such as this (the issue here is not "faith alone," but, rather, "the sin of homosexual copulation," which the RCC and my Protestant denomination are in agreement on) is the backbone of a strong membership. It is the denominations that reject scripture which ultimately lose members.

Seems to me, that if the church doesn't want to give communion to a homosexual because they believe it's a sin, that's their choice because they believe it to be a sin; however, to deny it to those who merely support the homosexuals seems that they have forgotten something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin. Seems like the supporters are loving the sinner
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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#426790 - 05/16/05 08:43 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
It's a lot easier to say that you can change something that you were born into and raised with than actually doing it. It's possible, but usually involves a lot.
.

Dad was raised RC, the son of immigrant Italians in a working-class Italian neighborhood in Brockton, Mass. He left the Church at 18. Chose agnosticism. Not unheard of.

It "involves a lot," you say? Well, ya! And violating the altar doesn't?

Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Seems to me that, if the church doesn't want to give communion to a homosexual because they believe it's a sin, that's their choice because they believe it to be a sin; however, to deny it to those who merely support the homosexuals seems that they have forgotten something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin. Seems like the supporters are loving the sinner.
.

Ah, where to begin.

1. "something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin"

While that is the message of the Bible, it doesn't actually say that. There is no such verse. But, that is the message. "All have sinned" "Love thy neighbor." But there is no verse that actually says, "love the sinner hate the sin." That is not "something said in their bible." It is a modern slogan. It sums up Bible teaching.

I start with that, because it reveals your need of a religious education. Next, onto the other stuff.

2. What are you referring to when you write, "they believe it's a sin"? The RCC, along with every other world-class denomination and religion, teaches that the behavior is the sin.

3. "if the church doesn't want to give communion to a homosexual because they believe it's a sin, that's their choice because they believe it to be a sin"

Communion comes after cofession and repentance.

If a homosexual confesses homosexual copulation, and repents it, the priest absolves him, then the homosexual may approach the altar with a clear conscience, and receive communion.

A susceptability to sinful desires (in this case, homosexual desire, i.e., in newspeak's non-behavioral definition, his being "a homosexual") does not bar one from communion.

4. "however, to deny it to those who merely support the homosexuals seems that they have forgotten something said in their bible: love the sinner hate the sin. Seems like the supporters are loving the sinner."

It isn't about homosexuals, per se. It is about folks rejecting the church teaching that says the act of homosexual sex is a sin. It is about homosexuals refusing to call their sexual sin a sin, refusing to confess it as a sin, refusing to repent the sinful behavior; and just rejecting the Church's doctrine.

"Those who merely support the homosexuals" are joining with the homosexuals in rejecting the Church's doctrine.

---------

The taking of Communion conveys spiritual benefit, if taken with a proper heart. Taken improperly can be deadly. So, who do you say loves the sinner? The one who seeks to preserve him from harm? Or the one who joins him in seeking to be harmed?

Quote:
1 Corinthians 11: 27-32

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.

For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [died].

But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
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The message of this Bible passage is clear. It is the reason most churches will not offer communion to non-believers. It is the reason the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod practices close communion. Only those who are close to us in belief, in the beliefs that we confess, and are penitent, are offered communion. It is the reason that the RCC refuses communion to non-Catholics, and to the impenitent, generally.

Communion is not "merely" a club ritual. It is a matter of life and death. It is guarded with all the seriousness which that entails.

Quote:
Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are sick.

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#426791 - 05/16/05 09:38 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Brian Bell Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 298
Loc: U.S.A.
What a crock.

Well, it's a Sacrament, not a legal right. The priest can deny Communion to anyone he wants to deny it to -- it's his call, and his bishop's or archbishop's call.

Primacy of the conscience.

These parishners' conscience has the same primacy, and if their conscience is telling them gays have rights and deserve support, no matter what this Church may say -- and I'm not aware of any infallible statements on the matter, for which a wide variety of criteria is required -- they can still be good Catholics and feel the way they do about gay rights.

All these parishners really need to do is find a more gay-friendly parish, no need to leave the Church. They should try a Jesuit mission or something. Plenty of Churches out there, at the very least, are far less interested in politics and more interested in the spirit. No need to go where you're not welcome.

Although, truthfully, they were being intentionally provocative. What did they expect? It wasn't a nice thing to do to that priest, no matter what his views are. They put him in an awkward position. That's not terribly nice. The altar is not for political fights, and that goes for both sides.

Also, Porta, you don't know a thing about Catholic theology, do you? Two weeks ago our problem was works not faith, and now our problem is faith not works. Make up your mind.
_________________________
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
-- Jerry Garcia

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#426792 - 05/16/05 10:34 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
David Porta Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Bell:
If a parishner's conscience is telling him gays have rights and deserve support, they can still be good Catholics and feel the way they do about gay rights.
.

If a parishoner supports civil rights for all, that's no sin.

If he rejects RCC doctrine, he has no business taking RC Communion.

.

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#426793 - 05/16/05 11:22 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Brian Bell Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 298
Loc: U.S.A.
Primacy of conscience, Porta. Only infallibility or direct quotes from Jesus can trump that.

You have no idea what Catholic theology has to say on these matters, exactly. So, either convert and learn, or give it up.
_________________________
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves."
-- Jerry Garcia

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#426794 - 05/16/05 11:22 PM Re: Gay Supporters Denied Communion
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 2795
Loc: Milky Way
Originally posted by David Porta:
I start with that, because it reveals your need of a religious education.

Wow. The left talk to you like you're an idiot and the right talk to you like you're an idiot. And there are those who wonder why most of America could care less about voting. Because you can't have a discussion without being told you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and need to be educated to the "right" way of thinking.

No wonder Jesus didn't want to hang around with us.
_________________________
"Part of me suspects that Iím a loser, and the other part of me thinks Iím God Almighty.Ē

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