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#431927 - 10/26/05 05:31 AM 2000
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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They just announced another soldier has been killed in Iraq bringing the total to 2000.

On 'Imus in the Morning' he almost announced it by saying another soldier was killed in Vietnam.

"Where have all the soldiers gone- gone to graveyards everyone. When will they ever learn. When will they ever learn."
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#431928 - 10/26/05 09:05 AM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
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What went faster, the first thousand deaths or the second thousand? I ask not in any grim way, but just to understand if the rate of US soldier killed in action is increasing.
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#431929 - 10/26/05 03:49 PM Re: 2000
The Last Starfighter Offline
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Michael Savage says the way we are fightin over there is stupid. When we could just drop a bomb over there and be over with it. Were taking unecessary risks. I remember with the count was 500 about a year and a half ago.
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#431930 - 10/26/05 07:18 PM Re: 2000
X-height Offline
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Quote:
What history, I say, can ever give - for who can know - the mad, determined tussle of the armies, in all their separate large and little squads. Who know the conflict, hand-to-hand, the writhing groups and squads, the cries, the din, the cracking guns and pistols, the distant cannon, the cheers and calls and threats and awful music of the oaths, the indescribable mix - the officers' orders, persuasions, encouragements - the strong shout, "Charge, men, charge", the flash of the naked sword, and rolling flame and smoke? Of scenes like this, I say, who writes the story. Of thousands, north and south, of unwritten heroes, unknown heroisms, incredible, impromptu, first-class desperations - who tells? No formal general's report, nor book in the library, nor column in the paper, embalms the bravest, north or south, east or west. Unnamed, unknown, remain, and still remain, the bravest soldiers. - Walt Whitman
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#431931 - 10/26/05 08:27 PM Re: 2000
B. Michael White Offline
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AKA


pfft! 2000? That ain't sheeit!

Leaves of grass my ass!

Walt freakin' Whitman!
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#431932 - 10/26/05 09:26 PM Re: 2000
Sean Murphy Offline
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You do realize, X, that Whitman's piece can easily be taken to extoll the heroism of the Iraqis who felt they were fighting off invaders, right?

No formal general's report, nor book in the library, nor column in the paper, embalms the bravest, north or south, east or west.

And personally, I doubt Whitman would be all that enthusiastic about a war that involved very little armies clashing on the field, but lots and lots of airstrikes on civilian areas. Just my opinion, of course.

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#431933 - 10/27/05 09:45 AM Re: 2000
X-height Offline
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enthusiastic?

we are talking about Sacrifice, heroisms, first-class desperations ; on either side.

Do we forget our own civil war?

You might as well ask if the South was wrong?
Was the War Wrong?
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#431934 - 10/27/05 12:49 PM Re: 2000
Sean Murphy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by X-height:
enthusiastic?

we are talking about Sacrifice, heroisms, first-class desperations ; on either side.

Do we forget our own civil war?

You might as well ask if the South was wrong?
Was the War Wrong?
Man, the pro-war and the pro-Bush people (usually, but not necessarily, the same folks) are starting to get really incoherent as things continue to go bad for their respective causes.


Trying to answer your odd questions:

Yes, Whitman was admiring of the heroism that often occurs in war. I merely point out that there is zero heroism involved in ordering airstrikes on civilian targets, as we do so often in Iraq and most other wars we fight nowadays.

Do we forget the Civil War? I would say that anyone who's enthusiastic about war DOES forget the tragedies and horrors of the Civil War. Maybe the Europeans are much less hawkish is because they remember what it's like to have your country turned into a battlefield.

Was the South wrong? Is that a rhetorical question? Hell, I'd say the South caused a hee of a lot more human suffering than Saddam Hussein ever did.

Was the Civil War wrong? I assume that's the war you're talking about. No, it was necessary. That's one of the things you pro-invasion people seem utterly unable to understand. Most of us who opposed our unprovoked, illegal invasion of Iraq are not pacifists, we just saw that this was an unjust, unnecessary war that would cause more harm than good. Oh, and that it was really about control of oil reserves.

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#431935 - 10/27/05 01:03 PM Re: 2000
Paul Herden Offline
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Wrong? Wrong? No, the Civil War was great. It was a fabulous use of lives and resources. That's what an intelligent, well-governed society is all about: creating the opportunity for desperation sacrifices.

I'm not as eager as you to embrace a quote about how not knowing is the most noble evidence. But in reading some of your arguments on other threads, I can understand its attraction to you.

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#431936 - 10/27/05 01:26 PM Re: 2000
X-height Offline
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Quote:
I merely point out that there is zero heroism involved in ordering airstrikes on civilian targets, as we do so often in Iraq and most other wars we fight nowadays.
I see so that #2000 died of what? air sickness?

"No, it was necessary" - so the south just couldn't have its own little confederation, please.

Apparently you have it all figured out as to what a necessary and unnecessary war is.


Let me ask you this are all divorces necessary?
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#431937 - 10/27/05 03:04 PM Re: 2000
David Porta Offline
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.

I thought this was gonna be about Y2K.

.

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#431938 - 10/27/05 05:16 PM Re: 2000
B. Michael White Offline
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I thought it was gonna be a funny Conan O'Brien skit.


And in a way, it's kinda like that.


Except not.
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#431939 - 10/27/05 05:40 PM Re: 2000
geedis Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by X-height:
Let me ask you this are all divorces necessary?
Not ones that end in death, no.
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#431940 - 10/28/05 02:35 AM Re: 2000
David Porta Offline
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.

Death is the only divorce acceptable to God.

"Till death do you part."

.

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#431941 - 10/28/05 06:45 AM Re: 2000
Pat ONeill Offline
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Porta:

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, your denomination--the Lutheran Missouri Synod--will remarry divorced persons...the same as virtually every Protestant denomination.

Are you saying they're wrong?
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#431942 - 10/28/05 07:30 AM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
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Hell Porta. You are going to Hell.
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#431943 - 10/28/05 11:28 AM Re: 2000
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
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.

We should remind the world that our 2,000th fatality did not end our commitment to freedom and justice, but reminded us just how much we owe our dead so that their ultimate sacrifice was not in vain. We must make sure this sacrifice will lead to the defeat of the terrorists and the establishment of freedom in the greater Middle East.

Syriaís government is little more than Murder, Inc. Its assassination of Mr. Hariri slowed the entire Lebanese reform movement.

Itís been a fine and noble thing that George Bush began to confront Syria, but he should go even further to call on the nations of the world to consider the young Assad the new Milosevic who, like the Iranian president, is an international outlaw deserving of sanctions, embargos, and global ostracism.

Once we went into Iraq, in the long run there was no living with either Assad or a nuclear Iranian theocracy ó and both autocracies grasped that fact far better than we did, as evidenced by the constant stream of terrorists flooding in to kill Americans and undermine Iraqi democracy. The more we jawbone them, pressure them, and isolate them now, the less likely it is that we will have to use force later.

We are taking great risks at great costs to join with the Iraqis to give freedom and equality at last a chance in the Middle East.

.

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#431944 - 10/28/05 11:33 AM Re: 2000
snoid Offline
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Registered: 02/26/99
Posts: 2205
Quote:
Originally posted by David Porta:
.

We should remind the world that our 2,000th fatality did not end our commitment to freedom and justice, but reminded us just how much we owe our dead so that their ultimate sacrifice was not in vain. We must make sure this sacrifice will lead to the defeat of the terrorists and the establishment of freedom in the greater Middle East.

Syriaís government is little more than Murder, Inc. Its assassination of Mr. Hariri slowed the entire Lebanese reform movement.

Itís been a fine and noble thing that George Bush began to confront Syria, but he should go even further to call on the nations of the world to consider the young Assad the new Milosevic who, like the Iranian president, is an international outlaw deserving of sanctions, embargos, and global ostracism.

Once we went into Iraq, in the long run there was no living with either Assad or a nuclear Iranian theocracy ó and both autocracies grasped that fact far better than we did, as evidenced by the constant stream of terrorists flooding in to kill Americans and undermine Iraqi democracy. The more we jawbone them, pressure them, and isolate them now, the less likely it is that we will have to use force later.

We are taking great risks at great costs to join with the Iraqis to give freedom and equality at last a chance in the Middle East.

.
Hell Porta, you are going to hell.
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#431945 - 10/28/05 01:38 PM Re: 2000
Pat ONeill Offline
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And once again, Porta ignores a direct question.
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#431946 - 10/28/05 04:58 PM Re: 2000
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
.

We should remind the world that our 2,000th fatality did not end our commitment to freedom and justice, but reminded us just how much we owe our dead so that their ultimate sacrifice was not in vain. We must make sure this sacrifice will lead to the defeat of the terrorists and the establishment of freedom in the greater Middle East.

Syriaís government is little more than Murder, Inc. Its assassination of Mr. Hariri slowed the entire Lebanese reform movement.

Itís been a fine and noble thing that George Bush began to confront Syria, but he should go even further to call on the nations of the world to consider the young Assad the new Milosevic who, like the Iranian president, is an international outlaw deserving of sanctions, embargos, and global ostracism.

Once we went into Iraq, in the long run there was no living with either Assad or a nuclear Iranian theocracy ó and both autocracies grasped that fact far better than we did, as evidenced by the constant stream of terrorists flooding in to kill Americans and undermine Iraqi democracy. The more we jawbone them, pressure them, and isolate them now, the less likely it is that we will have to use force later.

We are taking great risks at great costs to join with the Iraqis to give freedom and equality at last a chance in the Middle East.

.

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#431947 - 11/08/05 12:12 PM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
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[img]http://www.lies.com/images/first_year_sm.gif[/img]

[img]http://www.lies.com/images/first_four_years_sm.gif[/img]

[img]http://www.lies.com/images/entire_war_sm.gif[/img]

I don't know if which group died in a short time period, the first thousand or the second thousand. It does seem like the rate is accelerating.

What's scary is that most of the day to day security is being handled my the Iraqi military and police now and the casualty rate of the "coalition" is still rising... that's not including the deaths of Iraqi military or police which have higher figures attached to them.
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#431948 - 11/08/05 12:58 PM Re: 2000
geedis Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pat ONeill:
And once again, Porta ignores a direct question.
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#431949 - 11/08/05 01:20 PM Re: 2000
Dean R Milburn Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul O'Keefe:

I don't know if which group died in a short time period, the first thousand or the second thousand. It does seem like the rate is accelerating.

It's still an upward trend, but I don't know that it's accelerating.

I did a quick regression and it looks to me like the current trend line is for each month to carry about one more fatality than the month before it.

The formula is

US Monthly fatalities = 46.3+1.03xMonth of conflict where Oct 2005 is month 32.

So for example, we'd expect November fatalities to be about 80, December 81 and so on. Assuming the trend line doesn't change it would imply something like 1060 fatalities for 2006, so we'd pass 3000 around next Thanksgiving.

To see if it were accelerating, I think you'd have to test a number of non linear functions and check the slope at the end of the curve.

I did one gut check and it shows that 6 months ago the simple linear regression showed a slope of 1.24, higher than the current 1.03. That implies a decelleration, but it's not enough evidence to say for sure. I that's the case, although even in that scenario it still implies close to 1000 US dead next year.

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#431950 - 11/08/05 01:41 PM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
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Thank's Dean. I though I'd let you know about the figures before I said it was accelerating, but I just looked at the graph and said to myself, "Hey this is getting worse, not better".

I defer to your interpretations of the actual numbers though.
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#431951 - 11/08/05 01:57 PM Re: 2000
flying pig Offline
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A couple of graphs that need to be added.

Graph 1: How many troops were in Vietnam starting in Dec 61 to the end compared to the number of troops in Iraq Mar 03 until now?

Graph 2: How many combat units were active in Dec 61 to the end in Vietnam compared to the combat units in Iraq from Mar 03 until now?
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#431952 - 11/08/05 03:04 PM Re: 2000
Dean R Milburn Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by flying pig:
A couple of graphs that need to be added.

Graph 1: How many troops were in Vietnam starting in Dec 61 to the end compared to the number of troops in Iraq Mar 03 until now?

Graph 2: How many combat units were active in Dec 61 to the end in Vietnam compared to the combat units in Iraq from Mar 03 until now?
Even that wouldn't tell the whole picture. The total number of troops deployed tell you nothing about the way the troops were deployed (what percentage of those killed in Vietnam were involved in offensive operations) or the difference in armor technology or the change in life saving medical technology (what percentage of the wounded in action in died in Vietnam vs. Iraq.?)

I don't suspect that the casualty levels in Iraq will ever approach the Vietnam level, the public simply won't tolerate it.

Remember: less than two months to get in your charitable deductions for the year LP.

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#431953 - 11/08/05 03:27 PM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
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As I flood victim, I take personal cheques, money orders, or email money transfers. Merci.
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#431954 - 11/08/05 03:40 PM Re: 2000
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Matthew 19:9 (Revised Standard) -- And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

Or if you prefer King James -- And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Jesus said divorce was permitted in cases of your spouse cheating on you.

Real Christians read the Bible.
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#431955 - 11/12/05 07:41 AM Re: 2000
Gary Reed Offline
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Quote:
Matthew 19:9 (Revised Standard) -- And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

Or if you prefer King James -- And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
But there's more in the "good" book....

"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10)

Quote:
Jesus said divorce was permitted in cases of your spouse cheating on you.
Not much need for divorce as the "spouse" is already taken care of.

Quote:
Real Christians read the Bible.
But apparently, not all of it.
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#431956 - 11/12/05 02:20 PM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by flying pig:
A couple of graphs that need to be added.
You are free to present whatever graphs you may.

Some suggest that there are fewer deaths in the current war because medical science has improved that much since other wars.

Time will tell the tail. Eventually.
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#431957 - 11/12/05 03:39 PM Re: 2000
David Porta Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul O'Keefe:
Some suggest that there are fewer deaths in the current war because medical science has improved that much since other wars.

Time will tell the tail. Eventually.
.

HA-ha!

[img]http://www.conmicro.cx/~kturtle/cartoons/2003/kt-tail.gif[/img]

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#431958 - 11/12/05 04:37 PM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
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Well I spelled something wrong. I guess I'm wrong about Bush too.

Time to shave some bush.
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#431959 - 11/14/05 09:47 AM Re: 2000
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Mr. Reed, I am well aware of the passage from Leviticus you quoted, having used it in a sermon once. And are you aware of the following passage from John 8: "[3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
(KJV)

In other words, Jesus didn't think adulterers should be put to death. But then you probably knew that, what with the line "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" being one of the most famous part of Jesus' teachings and all.
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#431960 - 11/14/05 09:54 AM Re: 2000
madget Offline
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And yet Christians so excel at casting them.

K

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#431961 - 11/14/05 05:52 PM Re: 2000
David Porta Offline
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Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Kilvington:
Jesus didn't think adulterers should be put to death.
.

Jesus is God. God made the rule that adulterers shall be put to death, in Israel. So, you are full of shit.

.

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#431962 - 11/14/05 11:44 PM Re: 2000
Paul Herden Offline
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.

Porta thinks his morality trumps Christ's.

.

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#431963 - 11/15/05 06:53 AM Re: 2000
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Loc: Mason, MI, USA
Porta is an anti-Christian.
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#431964 - 11/15/05 09:14 PM Re: 2000
Gary Reed Offline
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From Matthew (5:18-5:19) on Jesus referring to the laws of Moses. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, apparently heís saying that the old laws must be respected yet he violates that law. Jesus, therefore, invalidates the previous laws after telling others to follow them?


Going back to your previous post regarding divorceÖ
So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:9

whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery
Matthew 5:32, 19:9, Luke 16:18

But then there is your exception. If the spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible: Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery Matthew 5:32.

Yet the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is an adulterer:
...whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her Mark 10:11, Luke 16:18

Mark and Luke say nothing regarding a permissible reason so the vote is 2-1 against.

But then again, itís the Bible and this is just one of 587,324 contradictions (okay, Iíll admit thatís not an accurate number but I lost count once my head started hurting so I just took a guess).

Not sure now why the divorce situation was posted in the first place, come to think of it.

But with the Bible, Iím sure anyone looking for an answer can find one that suits their needsÖas long as they donít have to include all of it.

Quote:
In other words, Jesus didn't think adulterers should be put to death. But then you probably knew that, what with the line "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" being one of the most famous part of Jesus' teachings and all.

I donít know if that is the best known one. Guess it varies.. But this is one of my favorite Jesus quotesÖit sums things up nicely.

If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26
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#431965 - 11/15/05 09:58 PM Re: 2000
Sean Murphy Offline
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Um, 2068 as of 11/14/05, in case anyone's still interested...At this rate, by this time next year Dubya will have killed more Americans with his little adventure than bin Laden has.

Oh, and roughly 27,000-30,000 reported Iraqi civilian casualties.

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#431966 - 11/15/05 10:25 PM Re: 2000
Gary Reed Offline
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Sorry I contributed to the side track on trivalities...the original intent on this board is a far more serious and meaningful subject.

And I'm not sure, but hasn't it already surpassed the Twin Towers disaster? I thought there were about 1,600 Americans but certainly could be fautlty memory on my end and stands to be corrected.

I know most of you aren't old enough to remember Vietnam and although I was still young, I saw the impact with friends and families and of course, society.

I wouldn't be surprised if we headed down that road again. I think it hasn't so far because its a big difference in volunteers as opposed to draftees...but the volunteers are getting a lot more than they signed up for. And so far, the rage has not turned on the soldiers themselves...just the politicians...as it should be.
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#431967 - 11/18/05 06:19 PM Re: 2000
The Return of Scooterdoom Offline
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Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
Oh, and roughly 27,000-30,000 reported Iraqi civilian casualties.
No one cares.

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#431968 - 11/18/05 06:21 PM Re: 2000
Mr Socko Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Return of Scooterdoom:
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
Oh, and roughly 27,000-30,000 reported Iraqi civilian casualties.
No one cares.
Exactly.
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#431969 - 11/18/05 06:24 PM Re: 2000
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
...and roughly 27,000-30,000 reported Iraqi civilian casualties.
"Every mans death effects me, for I am a part of mankind."
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#431970 - 11/18/05 06:27 PM Re: 2000
Mr Socko Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 1304
Quote:
Originally posted by Agrasshopperwalksintoabar:
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
...and roughly 27,000-30,000 reported Iraqi civilian casualties.
When the elephants fight, the grass dies.
frown


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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#431971 - 11/19/05 10:21 AM Re: 2000
Paul O'Keefe Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 5308
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
Um, 2068 as of 11/14/05, in case anyone's still interested...At his rate, by this time next year Dubya will have killed more Americans with his little adventure than bin Laden has.
And that's just Iraq. How many soldiers died and continue to fall in Afghanistan? I must point out however that Afghanistan was/is a worthy target/fight.
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#431972 - 11/19/05 02:52 PM Re: 2000
David Porta Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 4823
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul O'Keefe:
I must point out however that Afghanistan was/is a worthy target/fight.
.

So are Iraq, Iran, Syria...

.

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#431973 - 11/19/05 10:10 PM Re: 2000
Sean Murphy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/99
Posts: 1481
Loc: State of Confusion
Quote:
Originally posted by The Return of Scooterdoom:
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
Oh, and roughly 27,000-30,000 reported Iraqi civilian casualties.
No one cares.
Oh, the hundreds of thousands of people who might be wanting revenge because we killed their family and friends might care...

Oh, do you mean no Americans care? "Bring it on!", right...


Associated Press
Bombs Kill Five U.S. Soldiers in Iraq

- - - - - - - - - - - -

November 19,2005 | BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Five U.S. soldiers were killed Saturday and five others were wounded in a pair of roadside bombings in northern Iraq, the U.S. military said.

The soldiers were assigned to the 101st Airborne Division and were on patrol near Beiji, 155 miles north of Baghdad, the statement said.

Three of the wounded were transported to a U.S. military hospital, and the two others were treated and returned to duty, the statement added.

At least 2,090 members of the U.S. military have died since the war began in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count.

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#431974 - 11/22/05 06:15 PM Re: 2000
Mr Socko Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 1304
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
Quote:
Originally posted by The Return of Scooterdoom:
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Murphy:
[qb]Oh, and roughly 27,000-30,000 reported Iraqi civilian casualties.
No one cares.
Oh, the hundreds of thousands of people who might be wanting revenge because we killed their family and friends might care...

Nothing a few nukes can't take care of..
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YOU ARE F__KING DEAD YOU PIECE OF SHIT - snoid

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#431975 - 11/22/05 09:51 PM Re: 2000
B. Michael White Offline
Member

Registered: 09/25/01
Posts: 2123
Loc: Nowhere
Where the heck have you been?
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