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#460732 - 03/27/01 03:02 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
The OC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 1985
I'm very proud to make post 200 in this thread, to no good purpose other than being able to say that I did, indeed, make it.

------------------
"If you pull your head outa your butt, you'll see things a whole bunch clearer."
-- Witty but intolerant Chris Medellin, to popular Otto Chelman
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"You have [my] contempt." -- Alan Light to disappointed TBG subscriber.

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#460733 - 03/27/01 03:57 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Kim: The "inscrutable" thing could go either way as to whether Sim was being racist.

Do you concede, though, that as far as Sim's description of the argument goes, as Sim originally presented it in #186, that Jeff Smith is not, as you recalled, particularly "cowed?"
'Cause I think Sim potrays JS as goofily flummoxed, but not in any way afraid of Sim.

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#460734 - 03/27/01 04:45 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
Kim Thompson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
Do you concede, though, that as far as Sim's description of the argument goes, as Sim originally presented it in #186, that Jeff Smith is not, as you recalled, particularly "cowed?"


To a degree. I guess I always thought of it as intellectually cowed, not physically cringeing or anything.

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#460735 - 03/27/01 06:30 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
ronfrantz Offline
Member

Registered: 01/20/00
Posts: 92
Loc: Mena, Arkansas
I have been reading through this chain with mixed feelings of amusement and bewilderment.
It began with the absurd notion of one cartoonist threatening to punch out another. The idea is not far removed from Woody Allen thumping his chest and proclaiming a desire to clean out a waterfront saloon. Not that the idea itself isn't funny.

Having met Sim at a 1986 convention at Dallas, he didn't strike me as much of a tough guy. At a party, we chatted for a half hour or so, talking shop. At the time I was publishing the b/w ACE Comics line. It seemed we had a few things in common. Sim and I were both using the same printer and we both had problems with some distributors, geting them to pay their bills in a timely manner. I wouldn't call Sim the nicest guy that I've ever met, but there are lots of people around that I like a lot less. I remember Sim being a little stuffy in the beginning, but he chilled out a bit after we had a drink or two.

Now, I have never been a fan of Cerebus. Nothing personal against Sim, but the subject matter is not my kind of thing. However, there is no accouting for taste. I remember talking with Alex Toth some years ago, who admired Sim's work very much. It is kind of hard to argue artistic merit with Toth, who has forgotten more on the subject than most artists (or fans) have ever learned. That certainly includes me.

As this particular chain has rambled on, I will admit to not understanding much of the personal animosity directed at Sim. Heaven knows that he is not the first comics professional to say something stupid in print and he sure as hell won't be the last. I would probably have some difficulty agreeing with Sim on the time of day. However, it seems to me that he is entitled to his own opinion.

For some reason, there are always people around who are not so inclined. I would imagine there several among Sim's critics who suffer from professional jealousy. Nothing annoys some people more than a rival's success, and Sim has certainly done well for himself at the box office.

Then, there are those who apparently take issue that Sim is a flawed human being.
These people seem to overlook the fact that, in one way or another, each of us have similar problems. The only thing that differs are the flaws or the matter of degree. It seems odd to me that some of Sim's fans would be brokenhearted to discover that their hero has feet of clay, entertains peculiar notions, or lacks in basic civility. Personally, I have enough problems of my own to worry much about Sim.

I think the bottom line to all of this nonsence is: IF Sim is really determined to massage his knuckles on a colleague...and IF the other fellow is like-minded, my suggestion is that they put on gloves, sell tickets, pound the daylights out of one another, and donate the proceeds to some worthwhile charity. If won't be anything on a scale with Dempsey and Firpo but, if nothing else, it should be good for a few laughs. Segar might have said it best: "Let's you and him fight!"

Ron Frantz
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Midguard Publishing Company
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#460736 - 03/27/01 06:58 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
I don't see how the stuff that's been related translates into a 'movement'. Image Comics sounds more like a self-pubishing movement than the descriptions related by Colleen, Veitch and the other (and therefore lesser) contributors. A group of people unified in their (ostensible) desire to put out their own books, organized. [Insert insult of Image, their books, their creators, their organization or anything else here]. I can see how the groupthink would operate and create a perception of a movement (without the reality of same), but then I could also see it as an excuse for everybody to party on Sim's dime.
Nobody seems to have shared any accounts along the lines of "...that time Sim said to me 'isn't this self-publishing movement I've started great?'" Plenty of reports of him being an asshole, but none that couldn't have been settled by a "Fuck off, leave me alone." [Or even an "I'm trying to get this page done here, go draw that stupid aardvark if you're so desperate for some way to bother people"] Probably aren't too many human skulls around containing personalities that can do a 300-issue comic book story AND can play nice with others.
Self-interest could also be seen in any self-publishing events or tours as a good way to promote Sim/Cerebus. His footing other peoples' bills could be seen as funding the overall promotion [for Sim/Cerebus; besides, what other self-publishers could pump a lot of money into such a thing?], genuine benevolence, looking for sycophants, whatever. Once the group is together, for whatever reason, groupthink would be able to infest everybody and create the Movement That Does Not Exist, the perception without the reality, that causes the problems ["What would Dave Sim say if I did this to advance my career?"]. The author of "High Society" and "Church and State" should have known how groupthink works better [and, according to the Self-Publishing Guide, he did and went ahead anyway] but, to me, that's not a movement.
For the overall promotion of self-publishing, I'm unable to go further, except to ask if it is confirmed that people like Mike Richardson, Gary Groth, Denis Kitchen all said something along the lines of 'Dave Sim is the exception that proves the rule that self-publishing is not possible for creators.' If the answer is yes, then does anybody have suggestions on just how he should have gone about refuting that misconception without behaving like a pushy asshole or a sugardaddy? [For that matter, if the answer is yes, I'd love to know how they would weasel out of being confronted with their past statements nowadays]
"Strangers In Paradise" has done over 50 issues, mostly self-published. I assume "Bone" is somewhere in that area. If "Rare Bit Fiends", "Tyrant", the self-published "A Distant Soil" [can't name many others, "Beanworld"? "Hepcats"?] and more were in similar situations close to a decade later, that would seem more like a self-publishing movement to me, but even then it would be a bunch of individual creators and their books.
But that's just my opinion. I would speculate, however, that the contradictory reports [everybody else vs. Sim] might all be embraced if we have some definition of 'movement'. Think about what a stickler for words and their definitions Sim is, and a loophole for him to weasel out of might open. [Obviously such an attitude could cause him similar difficulties until his private dictionary is handed out to all the Dave Simulators out there, but that's his problem.]
Oh well, I'd never even known it was racist to call someone "inscrutable".
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#460737 - 03/27/01 07:03 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
The OC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 1985
Has anyone else noticed that Ron Frantz's posts always sound like the ruminations of a slightly truculent drunk? (Not that I'm accusing him of being a drunk, mind you -- just of sounding like one.)

Think about it. The generally self-important air, the run-on sentences, the off-kilter cadence and the rambling verbosity, plus rhetoric that never directly engages the point being discussed, while at the same time claiming to have resolved it. Think about what the above post would sound like if read aloud by Jack Lemmon in a Billy Wilder movie, and you'llknow what I mean.

The darnedest thing is, Ron's style is remarkably consistent and has been for years. I've read many of his posts, I've read his book, I've read his ACE Comics editorials and I've read some back issues of his fan work, and he always sounds this way. The factual pieces (such as his book) are full of interesting data and heartfelt reminisces, but reading them is like listening to a barfly who's waiting for his kid to show up at the saloon and guide him home. Sometimes, I'm informed, but always, I'm amazed and entertained.

Just an observation.
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"You have [my] contempt." -- Alan Light to disappointed TBG subscriber.

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#460738 - 03/28/01 12:44 AM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
savage Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/98
Posts: 1007
Loc: Minneapolis,MN USA
First you say:

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW:
I've never seen any public reference of his to a 'self-publishing movement' other than to rip to shreds the very notion.


Then when people give you examples of where he acted like it was and wrote like it was, you say:

Quote:
I don't see how the stuff that's been related translates into a 'movement'.


Quit moving the target, please.

Signed,
"A Lesser Contributor"
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#460739 - 03/28/01 09:18 AM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
Charles Reece Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
from Gene:

Quote:
Charles: I just gave you the short answer 'cause there's no way of knowing, on this or any msboard, how interested anyone is a sustained discussion of these matters.
On a theoretical basis, it's possible to draw parallels between two different persons experiencing emotions of indignation, putting aside (temporarily) the very different reasons each has for his emotional reaction. As I see it, first you identify what has caused the indignation, then you suss out whether or not said emotional reaction has any rational basis. Saying "Dave Sim hates women because he's a misogynist" is tautological twaddle (and no, that's not a direct quote from anyone).


I disagree with none of this. My point was that you skipped the second step, namely why Sim was suffering indignation. I see no other reason in this thread, or in his essay, than his views on men and women. (Well, you might argue that jealousy is another reason that's been suggested, but this was given as a basis for his views.) So, I'm not sure where that leaves us.

As for:
Quote:

Charles, I know you're familiar with this line of reasoning, because you used it on the "We've got another one" thread, in labeling Batman and other superheroes fascists (albeit with some degree of humor, I think). Just as there are substantial differences between the incidents of Ellison vs. Platt and of Sim vs. Smith, there are similar differences between the fictional construct that is Batman from a fictional construct that is inarguably fascist(assuming you can find one such). Yet you were perfectly happy to label old Pointy-Ears a total and complete fascist. As Gomer Pyle, that other fascist lackey of a totalitarian strike force, would say, "Shame, shame, shame!"


I never said Batman is a fascist, rather he's a right-winger. His views on truth, retribution, morality are all popularly conservative ideas. Superheroes tend to be right-wingers. Because they are often written by left-leaning creators, we occasionally get an exploration of their "mythology" or "archetypes", or an encounter with some political concern of the left (e.g., Batman is faced with the poor).



[This message has been edited by Charles Reece (edited 03-28-2001).]
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#460740 - 03/28/01 11:52 AM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
Heidi MacDonald Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 1465
Loc: New York, New York
Sim not only helped finance APE, but the first SPX was built around either a Spirits stop or a proto-Spirits tour, and Dave was the big draw at the first two or three events.

Chris W, two things:

#1: given the amount of space Dave gave in Cerebus to pictures of him and his allies out on the Spirits of Independence tour; given the fact that he gave a speech at ProCon in '93 (I think) which outlined the way to self publish; given the fact that he reprinted that speech and other writings in a guide to self-publishing; given the fact that about 10 years ago, everyone was sitting around in Dave' hotel room talking about how self-publishing was going to change comics...yes, it was a movement.

#2: can you please put spaces between your paragraphs?

BTW, Dave's ProCon speech remains the defining moment of the public Dave for me, anyway. It was a brilliant and inspiring speech, and for all its weirdness -- Dave believes NOT signing a contract protects you more than SIGNING a contract -- had soundbites which still are relevant. One point in particular that he kept coming back to "Is your work in print and available?" seems to have anicipated the whole GN phenomena.
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#460741 - 03/28/01 12:08 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
Ben Adams Offline
Member

Registered: 12/24/98
Posts: 483
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
[edited out because I posted in the wrong thread]

[This message has been edited by Ben Adams (edited 03-28-2001).]
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