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#460742 - 03/28/01 04:07 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Charles:
Apologies; you are quite right that I misremembered "right-winger" as "fascist," obviously confusing it with what another poster said.

But my essential point remains the same: your earlier argument abstracts certain aspects of the superhero and perceives them as "right-wing," even in the absence of a manifest, or even implicit, right-wing ideology. For instance, Abbie Hoffman to the contrary, no left-wing political movement seriously argues that the act of theft is OK, in large part because most lefties don't like having their stuff stolen any more than do righties. Therefore, Batman preventing an act of theft is not intrinsically "right-wing." You might have a slightly better argument with Iron Man, though, since the character's adventures have at times suggested a rightist stance toward "enemies of our country."

You're right that I didn't elucidate the "second step" where one decides whether or not a given figure's indignation is warranted, probably because that's where I feel everyone makes one's own personal evaluation. And of course there might be some circumstances of indignation where I did agree with Sim, and others where I did not. I did write him a long letter that he published all or most of, in which as I recall I tried to argue for a few more shades of grey in the battle between the Lights and the Voids, but I don't think I had much luck convincing him. I'm still glad I did it, though, because even Sim's most bizarre responses can be extremely thought-provoking.

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#460743 - 03/28/01 04:08 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Charles:
Apologies; you are quite right that I misremembered "right-winger" as "fascist," obviously confusing it with what another poster said.

But my essential point remains the same: your earlier argument abstracts certain aspects of the superhero and perceives them as "right-wing," even in the absence of a manifest, or even implicit, right-wing ideology. For instance, Abbie Hoffman to the contrary, no left-wing political movement seriously argues that the act of theft is OK, in large part because most lefties don't like having their stuff stolen any more than do righties. Therefore, Batman preventing an act of theft is not intrinsically "right-wing." You might have a slightly better argument with Iron Man, though, since the character's adventures have at times suggested a rightist stance toward "enemies of our country."

You're right that I didn't elucidate the "second step" where one decides whether or not a given figure's indignation is warranted, probably because that's where I feel everyone makes one's own personal evaluation. And of course there might be some circumstances of indignation where I did agree with Sim, and others where I did not. I did write him a long letter that he published all or most of, in which as I recall I tried to argue for a few more shades of grey in the battle between the Lights and the Voids, but I don't think I had much luck convincing him. I'm still glad I did it, though, because even Sim's most bizarre responses can be extremely thought-provoking.

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#460744 - 03/28/01 09:25 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Savage, you say "...where he acted LIKE it was and wrote LIKE it was". (emphasis mine) You don't say he acted in a movement, you don't say he wrote of a movement. Who's moving the target?

Heidi, I'd be too out of my depth to try to seriously pursue this line of thinking, but to me there seems too many possible interpretations to call it a movement. I live in Nebraska, where the Cornhusker football team is pretty much the only thing Nebraska is in any way special or of high quality. Lots of rabid fans, lots of people looking for money or attention, lots of work for those involved, a big general buzz surrounding it, but I don't think that would classify as a movement either. [This metaphor will probably get torn to shreds, but I don't have anything better to hand, and not much time.]

Excellent point on the graphic novel quote. I've wondered if Sim is more responsible than anybody [Gaiman, Spiegleman, Eisner, etc.] for the trend to big-ass comic books these days.

And I probably could use spaces between paragraphs, but I doubt I'll be able to remember it in the future. Sorry.
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#460745 - 03/28/01 10:04 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
savage Offline
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Registered: 11/24/98
Posts: 1007
Loc: Minneapolis,MN USA
you?
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#460746 - 03/29/01 09:49 AM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
Rich Henn Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/98
Posts: 478
Loc: Eldersburg, MD USA
I almost avoided dropping my two cents, but here it is...

Regardless of what everyone's personal opinions of Dave Sim may be, I think most people who self publish today would be hard pressed to say that they weren't influenced in some way by what Sim has done.

Myself included...and I've said this often enough.
I wouldn't be in comics today if it wasn't for Dave Sim. He's a true front runner in the self publishing movement. What he's done over the past 23+ years is a true credit to the industry.

Not to mention the fact that, as Heidi stated earlier, he was the one who truly started the SPX. Without Dave Sim, there would be no SPX/Expo today.

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#460747 - 04/03/01 01:45 AM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
Ben T. Steckler Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 199
Loc: York, PA, USA
this may be late, since both Messrs. Sim and Smith attended S.P.A.C.E. in Columbus with no altercations, but maybe the two should resolve this in true comic-hero fashion.
They meet on a rooftop, and each mistake the other for a super-villain. They slug it out for about 20 pages of sound effects, then realize their mistake, and team-up to take out the real villain, The Insane Clown Posse.
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#460748 - 04/03/01 06:56 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
But who would publish it?
How many variant covers would it have?
Could we get a cover blurb from Neil Gaiman?
Questions screaming to be answered...
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#460749 - 04/03/01 10:32 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
joseph_quick Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 3
Loc: lansing il usa
Say all you want about Dave Sim being a mysogynist, about him hating all that is feminent. But let's not forget his Aardvark has a cunt. That's where Cerebus tucks his wee wee when it's not in use.

Something that people, actually familiar with more than just one issue *cough* 186 *cough*, of Sim's work, would be familiar with.

I don't have the phonebooks with me down here at school, but I wanna say this hermaphroditic mystery was revealed to us in minds.

If Sim has lied, he is looney. If he thinks he can pass this lie off as a part of the fiction, (it does seem to have a great symmetory(sp?) with what's going on with his Hemingway character. Life imitating art or the other way around. Maybe just convenience or retrospect.)But if so,he's an ass.

But none of this madness negates the brilliance of his work. And he does make a great many a good point about the feminisation of modern american culture. Maybe he takes it to far. But his ideas would have been accepted sventyfive years ago, and that isn't a bad thing.

Whatever this conflict is, it's over, and it was none of our business to begin with. I have express my disgust for the creators who used this as their soap box to bash a man who's probably done alot for them and the industry. At least a few of you were kind enough to mention this.

I don't know who Kim is, but darling. You seem a bit vicious.

-quick

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#460750 - 04/04/01 11:59 AM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
Kim Thompson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by joseph_quick:
Whatever this conflict is, it's over, and it was none of our business to begin with.


No, it's not over -- my understanding is that Sim is going to publish Smith's response in the next CEREBUS, and call him out all over again. And if it was "none of our business" to begin with, why did Sim write up the original incident in CEREBUS, why did Smith respond with a long tirade about it in an interview, and why did Sim then retaliate in CEREBUS with HIS long tirade? The idea that this is a private matter that we're sticking our noses into, at this late date, is lunatic.

I think Sim is one of the most skillful cartoonists of his generation, and I acknowledge that he has been hugely generous to other cartoonists of his generation with his money and his time. But this does not negate the horrendousness of his loudly-trumpeted misogynist views nor the thuggish craziness of his challenge to Smith.

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#460751 - 04/04/01 12:16 PM Re: Sim vs. Smith!
The OC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 1985
Quote:
Originally posted by joseph_quick:
I don't know who Kim is, but darling. You seem a bit vicious.


On the other hand, I know who -- or at least what -- you are: a jackass.

I often disagree with Kim's views, but I'd never dismiss them. He's got high standards and the knowledge and rhetorical skills to support them -- and a track record of doing so that dates back at least to when you were in knee-pants.

Quote:
Originally posted by joseph_quick:
Something that people, actually familiar with more than just one issue *cough* 186 *cough*, of Sim's work, would be familiar with.


More to the point, he's been commenting on Cerebus from an informed perspective for most of the book's run -- and in real time, not via access to the phone book editions. Kim's review of the series up to issue 6, way back in the earliest days of TCJ was what got me reading Sim's work in the first place. And when he makes his comments, he backs them up with specific insights and quotations, rather than name-calling and making vague allusions (your technique) or pushing the words around until they don't mean anything anymore (gene's).

So, to take a page from your book: Cerebus may have a cunt, but it beats acting like one, lawyer boy.


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[This message has been edited by Otto Chelman (edited 04-04-2001).]
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