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#462105 - 04/30/01 06:53 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Layla Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 116
Loc: USA
First off, I still haven't figured out how to coax my posts into quoting other posts -- once again my technological illiteracy rears its ugly head. Hence my copy-pasted quotes. Hope nobody minds. Anyhow...

columnist wrote:
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Layla, I didn't say we disagreed. I honestly couldn't figure out which position was yours. If that is criticism, I mean it only in the literary sense. Might be my own fault too.
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lol. This is what comes of reading posts too quickly on my lunch break. You're right, you never said you disagreed. Dunno if I've actually clarified my position since then, either. Hopefully I've clarified what was unclear.
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Layla
http://www.ravenschildren.com

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#462106 - 04/30/01 07:05 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Layla Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 116
Loc: USA
Otto Chelman wrote:
-----------
Is it all at my end, or does Comicon.com seem especially balky today, causing a rash of unnecessary, duplicative posts?
-----------

It's not just you. It's slow as hell. Watch the status bar at the bottom of your screen. Once it goes from "Contacting host" to "Comicon contacted... waiting for reply" don't try to post again. As long as it managed to contact the server, the post will have been recorded and should be updated, even if your computer sits there for five minutes afterward. At least, that's been working for me. [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
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Layla
http://www.ravenschildren.com

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#462107 - 04/30/01 07:11 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
The OC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 1985
Quote:
Originally posted by Layla:
First off, I still haven't figured out how to coax my posts into quoting other posts --


Click on the little icon that consists of a rectangle with an arrow coming out of it -- if you position your cursor over it, you should get a li'l box that that says words to the effect of "Reply with Quote."

Failing that, cut and paste.


------------------
"If you pull your head outa your butt, you'll see things a whole bunch clearer."
-- Witty but intolerant Chris Medellin, to popular Otto Chelman
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Posted by Otto Chelman

"You have [my] contempt." -- Alan Light to disappointed TBG subscriber.

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#462108 - 04/30/01 07:17 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Layla Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 116
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Otto Chelman:
Click on the little icon that consists of a rectangle with an arrow coming out of it -- if you position your cursor over it, you should get a li'l box that that says words to the effect of "Reply with Quote."


Oooohhhhh! (Light bulb comes on.)

Thanks!
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Layla
http://www.ravenschildren.com

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#462109 - 04/30/01 07:28 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Layla Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 116
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knowles:
Yeah, I apologize for the tone of my post. I wrote without malice aforethought and then realized it seemed kind of harsh, then edited it but not before Layla responded to it. And it still came off a little stronger than I intended. But then it became a catalyst for more of the same kind of whining. I don't disagree with the some of the criticisms that atheists level against fundamentalist excess, but there is an overweening tone of self-righteousness and elitism in some of the posts here that is equally hard to swallow. I'm truly sorry if anyone takes offense to that, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.


I wasn't offended -- though I don't agree with many of your posts, I calls 'em like I sees 'em too. Apology appreciated.
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Layla
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#462110 - 04/30/01 07:52 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Layla Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 116
Loc: USA
Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here (having joined the discussion late) but I had to respond to this one:

Quote:
Originally posted by travis:
Interesting mentioning Pascal; almost every scientist who has significantly advanced science before 'our' present time was a Christian: Nicolaus Copernicus: 1473-1543 Polish Astronomer
Developed the heliocentric theory of the solar system.
Galileo Galilei: 1564-1642 Italian Physicist
Johannes Kepler: 1571-1630 German Astronomer
The 3 laws of planetary motion. Advanced Copernicus' heliocentric theory.
Blaise Pascal: 1623-1662 French Mathemetician
Newton Isaac: 1642-1727 (born Dec 25) English Mathemetician
Laws of gravitation and motion, developed calculus. Major contributions to optics, physics, math and astronomy.
Michael Faraday: 1791-1869 English Chemist
Discovered Benzene, electromagnetic induction, lines of force, relationship between polarized light and magnetic fields.
Lord Kelvin: 1824-1907 (William Thomson) British Physicist
First and second laws of thermodynamics. Absolute temp scale. Trans-Atlantic cable.
Also Gregor Mendel, who gave us the dominant/recessive genes breakdown. (from the "things that make you go hmmm..." category)



Euclid. Aristotle. Pythagoras. Hyppocrates. The Sumerian and Mayan genuises who independently invented the concept zero. The unknown Chinese inventor of gunpowder. The guy who wrote the first word, the guy who turned the first wheel, the guy who first smelted iron and the guy who discovered that copper and tin together make a much better metal than either one alone... the person who wove the first blanket, who shaped wet clay into the first pot, who chipped the first stone blade... heck, the guy (or woman?) who first realized that fire is not the sole province of the lightning gods.

Not a Christian among them.

What would Newton have known about light without glass to make a prism to shine it through? What would Pascal know of math without building on the discoveries of the Egyptian, Greek and Arabic mathematicians before him? How would Mendel have found the time to crossbreed peas when he was too busy clubbing deer over the head to drag back to the cave for his family?

Science does not exist in a vacuum. Scientists build on what has come before them, as well as on the discoveries being made around them. Certain times and places in history have been more conducive than others to this sort of discovery and intellectual development. One of these was Western Europe during the Enlightenment. Another was Ancient Greece. Another was the Middle East during the time of the early Egyptians and Sumerians. Yet I don't think worshipping Ishtar is going to give me the mental tools to invent a new writing system. If anything, the Enlightenment (from whence many of the afore-mentioned Christian scientists come) is a great example of how the loosening of religious restrictions on thought enabled science and the arts to flourish.
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Layla
http://www.ravenschildren.com

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#462111 - 04/30/01 08:06 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Tom Spurgeon Offline
Member

Registered: 12/24/98
Posts: 1095
Loc: WCW Special Forces
I say all this squabbling should end right now and everyone should return to the original point of this thread, which is hyping my strip.
http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/fun/bobos.asp?date=20010423

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#462112 - 04/30/01 08:10 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Tom Spurgeon Offline
Member

Registered: 12/24/98
Posts: 1095
Loc: WCW Special Forces
Quote:
Originally posted by Layla:
The guy who wrote the first word, the guy who turned the first wheel, the guy who first smelted iron and the guy who discovered that copper and tin together make a much better metal than either one alone... the person who wove the first blanket, who shaped wet clay into the first pot, who chipped the first stone blade... heck, the guy (or woman?) who first realized that fire is not the sole province of the lightning gods.


I hate to tell you this, but according to Johnny Hart, these people were Christians, too.

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#462113 - 04/30/01 08:37 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Chris said
Quote:
'This thread has become a forum for self-pitying atheists...'


I disagree. Please provide specifics of instances where the people posting here have expressed self-pity. Is it self pity for somebody to express how they feel about a situation? Is it self-pity for someone like myself (who has never personally suffered because of my views) to bring up the issue of institutional bigotry directed towards skepticism and unbelief? Please be more specific about the nature of your charge.

Chris:
Quote:
'... but I'm afraid I just don't feel sorry for you guys.'


That's alright, we'll just have to struggle on somehow without your sympathy, Mr. Knowles.

Chris:
Quote:
'Atheists may not be in the majority, but they have some pretty powerful allies in science, the arts and academia.'


Oh yeah, and we all know how powerful scientists, artists, and college professors are!

Chris:
Quote:
'There are plenty of atheist organizations and pressure groups...'


This is utter bullshit. I know of no atheist 'pressure groups' active in America. There is a very slender network of secular humanist and other freethinking groups in this country.

Chris again
Quote:
'...and plenty of prominent magazines (like Reason, Skeptic, etc) catering to your cause.'


Prominent magazines? Reason and Skeptic?

More Chris:
Quote:
'Yeah, I apologize for the tone of my post. I wrote without malice aforethought and then realized it seemed kind of harsh, then edited it but not before Layla responded to it. And it still came off a little stronger than I intended. But then it became a catalyst for more of the same kind of whining.'


It isn't clear here whether Chris is complaining about the brief comments of Aaron, U Po Kyin, or Brent, or the longer response from Columnist. Here's part of the latter:

Quote:

'Institutionalized tolerance (as in the First Ammendment) is necessary because the effects of *in*tolerance are not necessarily obvious to the majority. I don't think it is always done maliciously. As I say, to the majority it may just seem like conventional wisdom. That's why an identifiable benchmark like "If you have the right to YOUR beliefs, then other people have the right to THEIR beliefs" is so necessary in a pluralistic society.'


I'm completely at a loss to understand how anyone, no matter how narrow-minded, could see this paragraph as 'whining.'

Chris continues
Quote:
'I don't disagree with the some of the criticisms that atheists level against fundamentalist excess, but there is an overweening tone of self-righteousness and elitism in some of the posts here that is equally hard to swallow.'


I said that I'm proud to be an atheist. That may be too conceited and arrogant for Mr. Knowles, but I make no apology for it. As for the charge of self-righteousness, I have not detected any of our unbelieving respondents assuming a holier-than-thou attitude, so I once again request that Mr. Knowles provide specifics. I also don't get this charge of 'elitism', having not seen any post that suggests that we are a select, special group; in fact, I specifically complained about an elitist attitude that prevents some atheists from speaking plainly about unbelief. Of course maybe he just meant the 'tone' was elitist. Perhaps a reasonable discussion where evidence is provided comes across as 'elitist' in tone to someone like Chris-- I wouldn't know.

It's hard to square Chris's later accusations with his earlier swipe at us for being 'self-pitying.' How can you be arrogant and conceited and self-pitying at the same time?

Chris:
Quote:
' I'm truly sorry if anyone takes offense to that, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.'


We have no doubt of that, but Chris, baby, maybe you better get you some glasses!
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Joe Zabel

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#462114 - 04/30/01 08:50 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Jeff Zugale Offline
Member

Registered: 12/06/98
Posts: 1806
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Lest anyone forget, the great Albert Einstein was Jewish, yes? (at least, I think he was...) Without Al, none of our discourse would be possible, since relativity and its eventual outgrowth, quantum mechanics (which Einstein had serious difficulty dealing with) are the foundation for all current electronic technology.

He did believe in God, that much I know... but was dismayed to be shown that He does indeed play dice with the Universe. [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
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Jeff Zugale www.jeffzugale.com/
My "Just A Bit Off..." webcomic

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