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#461855 - 04/05/01 07:33 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Right, a 'God' who can't spell 'existence!' As if!!!!

Who d'you think you are, fella, David Kronenberg?
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#461856 - 04/05/01 07:56 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
The OC Offline
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Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 1985
Quote:
Originally posted by joezabel:
Right, a 'God' who can't spell 'existence!' As if!!!!



Presumably, it's the rest of us who are spelling it improperly, Joe.


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"If you pull your head outa your butt, you'll see things a whole bunch clearer."
-- Witty but intolerant Chris Medellin, to popular Otto Chelman
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#461857 - 04/05/01 08:29 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Well in that case I am pissed at God, because why can't God make the Goddamned dictionaries correct?

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Joe Zabel, who wonders why so many others put lengthy slogans in their signatures, so the rest of us have to read them over and over and over again in every friggin post...
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#461858 - 04/06/01 06:53 AM Re: Comicon help me write this...
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
Joe,

God is a concept, not a being. God is what you want it to be. Or not to be.

Do you have faith? A faith in anything? However that faith manifests, that's belief in "God".

I talk to God every day in that sense, but I'm not "religious" in any sense.

You can't deny the existence of the energy that pulses within you (I can't anyway) it is a separate, coherent thing, compared to the electric meat that this clumsy body is.

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#461859 - 04/06/01 11:24 AM Re: Comicon help me write this...
God Almighty Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 77
Loc: Everywhere (and all at once)
My dear JoeZ,

If I didn't model imperfection, how would mortals know how to act?

The dictionaries are right, have no fear, and the only truly perfect thing about deities is when they love their followers (and non-believers) without qualms or hurdles.

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#461860 - 04/06/01 10:26 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Jack-- I asked you two questions in my last post to you. You apparently answered the question of which God I'm supposed to be pissed at-- it's presumably the being/not-being/whatever-suits-ya God you have described above. Why it is you think I'm pissed at this particular deity is beyond me.

However, you didn't answer my other question, which was whether or not you were pissed at L. Ron Hubbard. I mean, it's a reasonable question-- you presume that nobody is really capable of not believing in your deity, so isn't it fair to turn the tables and assert that you, Jack, are not capable of simply not believing in Scientology? Face it, Jack, you're just in denial, you're pissed at L. Ron. If only you patched it up with him you'd realize that Dianetics is the hippest thing since the hula-hoop!

But even though you've overlooked one of my questions, Jack, I will answer your new question. Do I have faith? Faith being defined as an unquestioning belief in the supernatural, I would say definitely no, I do not have faith.

Now if you define faith simply as believing in something, well of course I do, a person can't function without believing that the sun is going to rise tommorrow, that if you don't pay your rent in time you will be evicted, etc. But the fact of my landlord'd greediness does not constitute 'God.' The concept of God means nothing if it doesn't involve the supernatural, and i don't believe in the supernatural. If you wish to call the natural world God, that's your choice, but to me it's just excess baggage-- the natural world is the natural world..

As for the 'energy' that supposedly 'pulses' within me, I think you'd have to be a little more specific. If you're talking about the natural drives and sensations of a complex product of natural evolution, of course I feel that, and get an enormous amount of enjoyment out of it. But if you're talking about an eternal soul or some other supernatural phenomena, then I certainly do deny that such a thing exists.

It's odd, when you think about it, that people have so much difficulty accepting the fact that atheists do exist. It's kind of like Pat O'Neil's perpetual position that nobody can 'really' like art comics, they're just trying to impress somebody. But people have different opinions about all kinds of things, why can't they disagree about the existence of God?

The answer, I think, is that religious people depend upon their faith to provide meaning to their life, to ward off loneliness, and to cushion them from their natural fear of death. And they can't comprehend that someone could face these things without that particular nostrum.

Take for instance the saying that 'there are no atheists in foxholes.' In fact, somebody did an opinion poll in foxholes one time, and found out that there were as many atheists there as anywhere else! But the religious think that naturally, in the foxhole, a person is going to convert before they get their heads blown off.

Atheists, for whatever reason, simply don't believe, and have to struggle with the meaningless of the universe and the fact that when they die, their consciousness will cease to exist.

Some of us atheists, in fact, think that we can live a better life if we face the harsh realities. The 'meaning' that religion supplies is shallow, insincere, and inflexible. Religion's promise of a reward in the next life doesn't quiet our fears.

And oftentimes the cost imposed by a religious belief is an excessive restraint of the person's freedom and a denial of their need to assert their own identity. Worse, religions often prompt people not to love their neighbors, but to hate them and kill them.

To face the meaningless of the universe and the certainty of death is the greatest challenge a human being can ever accept.

To forge a meaning of our own in this meaningless universe is the most gratifying accomplishment a person can ever experience.

To finally accept the fact that everything we are and everything we care about will someday cease to exist, that is to experience true peace of mind.

To the person posing as 'God Almighty', who wrote, ' the only truly perfect thing about deities is when they love their followers (and non-believers) without qualms or hurdles.'

If God, or whatever deities you believe in, was a loving creature, would he/she/they allow us to suffer so? Think of the starving children around the world, and all of the tragedies of history and the present day. If there really was an all-powerful being, then that being must have allowed these things to happen!

The religious usually reply that it's a 'mystery,' and mankind is simply incapable of understanding.

My answer is that suffering is a part of the random, meaningless nature of the universe. It's not a punishment for 'sins,' not a 'mystery' whose understanding could only be an absurdity.

As for love, it is a part of human nature (as is hate, of course.) We would do better to recognize the love within ourselves and try to cultivate it, instead of expecting love to sprinkle down from the heavens.
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Joe Zabel, who wonders why so many others put lengthy slogans in their signatures, so the rest of us have to read them over and over and over again in every friggin post...
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#461861 - 04/06/01 10:37 PM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Steve Lieber Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/00
Posts: 296
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Joe Zabel, who wonders why so many others put lengthy slogans in their signatures, so the rest of us have to read them over and over and over again in every friggin post.


Because it's cheaper than a banner ad.

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Unrewarding.com The acclaimed graphic novel WHITEOUT, my life-drawing gallery and more. Morning Dragons is coming in January 2002 from Image. My wife's novel, EMPRESS OF THE WORLD, is coming August 2001 from Viking.
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#461862 - 04/07/01 10:37 AM Re: Comicon help me write this...
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
Jack-- I asked you two questions in my last post to you. You apparently answered the question of which God I'm supposed to be pissed at-- it's presumably the being/not-being/whatever-suits-ya God you have described above. Why it is you think I'm pissed at this particular deity is beyond me.<<

I don't think you are "pissed" per se at anyone or anything. I find it interesting that you think we are a fluke is all. Is that what athiesm is? A total rejection of what's staring us right in our conscious faces?

Sure, it could be a colossal accident, some big extrapolation and juxtaposition of events that allow this planet and our living to take place.

How you would take comfort in that is beyond me, I find no peace there.

Makes me run screaming, hands over ears, actually.

What gives me comfort is the idea that we are creating and evolving for some greater purpose. Native American rhetoric has it that by 2016 (plus or minus) we will have completed the shift to a "consciousness based reality", many aspects of which are already beginning to emerge into the greater conciousness we all share.

I'm not disputing your assertion there is no god, you could very well be right. We humans are clumsy at identifying the unknown, however, and something is going on.


However, you didn't answer my other question, which was whether or not you were pissed at L. Ron Hubbard.<<

Who the fuck is that?

mean, it's a reasonable question-- you presume that nobody is really capable of not believing in your deity,<<

what is "my deity"? the light I saw in the Ark of the Covenant during my Bar Mitzvah? The "stars" I saw when I stuck a fork in the electric socket at 5?

so isn't it fair to turn the tables and assert that you, Jack, are not capable of simply not believing in Scientology?<<

I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about? What is "Scientology"?

Face it, Jack, you're just in denial, you're pissed at L. Ron. If only you patched it up with him you'd realize that Dianetics is the hippest thing since the hula-hoop!<<

Uh-huh [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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#461863 - 04/07/01 11:03 AM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Jack-- I hope you're not getting upset with me; I was kidding you a little bit there about L Ron Hubbard and Scientology.

You mean you've really never heard of Scientology? It's one of the most prominent mind-control cults in the world today. John Travolta and Tom Cruise are scientologists; the film BATTLEFIELD EARTH was based on a novel by this wacky SF writer/religious nut Hubbard.

I'd like to respond to some of your other points, but I don't want you to get pissed off at me!
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#461864 - 04/07/01 11:37 AM Re: Comicon help me write this...
Aaron White Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/99
Posts: 269
Loc: Birmingham, AL
Re: religion doing more harm than good.

I was raised a Christian. I became born again in high school, and was a dedicated Christian all through college. A few years back I realized that my faith was increasingly a matter of rationalization, and C. S. Lewis's Christian apoligetics that had seemed so persuasive in high school were in fact riddled with logical leaps, gaps and wishful thinking. And I've made the slide into athiesm.

How do I feel? Lousy. Why, because I'm out of tune with the God who gives life its meaning? No, because I believed a false promise. I feel like I was robbed of heaven, which is ridiculous. But if I had never been promised a heaven I wouldn't miss it now.

I've started going to the Unitarian Church, which is proving to be a useful halfway house, helping me to retain a sense of morality and the good things in life without demanding that I believe a bunch of happy hoohoo. Plus, hot athiest babes at the young adults meetings.

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