Travis wrote, 'There seems to be a fear (maybe a better word to describe this?) of some higher power judging you.'

I am concerned, and I think legitimately concerned, with being judged unfairly by other people. Although there's nothing mystical about it, the assembled judgements of a group of people represent a 'higher power' in their ability on occasion to control one's life.

Some of the religious apparently believe, and perhaps have been taught, that anyone who declares themselves an unbeliever is, ipso facto, a person without any sense of morality.

Any fair-minded person will realize that the most important moral values are shared by all, regardless of their creed or lack thereof. Any open-minded person will see that atheists are neither more nor less moral in their behavior than people who profess a religion.

But many in the religious community are neither fair-minded nor observant. That's why atheists have been subject to prejudice in the past, and still must endure it today.

I am not concerned about being judged by others for my behavior. But I will not tolerate being discriminated against because of a bigoted attitude towards me.

I have a question in turn for Travis. It seems to me that the religious have a tendency to want to judge others. Do you think that this is so? Do you think that they have a tendency to feel 'holier than thou?'

One reason I get so frustrated with the Christian theology is that heaven-hell thing. The hell dynamic is like giving people a life sentence in Alcatraz for unpayed parking tickets. A god that would punish all people with severity beyond anything we know on earth, with no parole or time off for good behavior, has no real claim to compassion or agape love. And don't give me that "but he doesn't want you to go to hell, Jesus died so you could go to heaven" routine. I'm supposed to believe that god's hands are tied in such an absurd fashion? It's as if Firestone Tires said "we'll replace your defective tires if you pledge eternal loyalty to our brand; otherwise, you can just ride those faulty tires, punk."

I'm not afraid of being judged by god anymore than I'm afraid of being eaten by a shoggoth, but Joe Zabel is right about the judgements of the christian community. I live in Alabama, where people actually believe that the Columbine shootings wouldn't have happened if they had mandatory Christian prayer in schools. "You can't be good without God" is a common phrase around here. That's presumably why Japan is a nightmarish, post-apocalyptic wasteland, where a woman costs less than a cigarette and only fools and lepers venture out after dark.



[This message has been edited by Aaron White (edited 04-16-2001).]

Yes, Joe, I'm afraid I have heard too many stories of Christians running around saying they're going to heaven, and unless you jump on the bandwagon, you're going to hell. I can understand why that's an uncomfortable thought, and why you may be turned off when you hear things like that. People tried to do this even in Jesus' day, which prompted His comment, "Why do you point out the splinter in your brother's eye, and ignore the plank in your own?"
They should caveat their statements at least, and admit they don't know what wil happen after death. Nobody knows, all we have to go by is what we read in the Bible.
The funny thing is eacha nd every religion holds the same belief, they just don't say it so loud. If there is only one truth, then by definition, everything else is false, right? Buddhism says there is no God, so how can you make thaqt agree with Christianity? Mormons put Joseph Smith in there as an additional mediary between man and God, which 'regular' Christians simply will not accept. Those few religions that try to accept all religions just don't ,ake any sense at all. How can I be right about God and Muslims be right, when Muslims insist Jesus was not the Son of God, merely another prophet? These irreconcilable differences mean that if you asked a Muslim, he would tell you if you do not belive that Muhammed is the prophet of God, you will go to hell. Christianity is more 'voluble' than other beliefs because of our instructions to preach the good word.

Aaron, I'm not sure that I could ever convince you; your heart seems to have been hardened. Try this analogy: you're in school, and you fail every test. whether you score a 49% or a 59%, you can never get even a D. Any obective, third party looking at your test scores would agree that you just can't make the grade. But now imagine that God is the teacher, and He says, "You know what? I know he keeps failing, but I love him so much, I'm going to throw out the rulebook and give him one more chance. All he has to do is accept Me, and I will pass him."
In other words, we all fail, no matter what, Aaron. From my viewpoint as a Christian, God's hands aren't tied, rather He has gone out of His way to give us a chance. If God is pure, and cannot exist in the presence of sin, then we all fall short; whether we murder, commit adultery, have thoughts of road rage revenge when somebody cuts us off on the freeway, it doesn't matter. Sin is sin.
If I understand your position correctly, you are proud of yourself and think you have lived a relatively good life so far, and do not believe your soul is in danger. You see no need for God's salvation, because you don't think you have done anything "really bad" to warrant condemnation. What Christians believe is that we are all sinners, and if you look obejectively at your behavior in life, and put in the front all of the bad things you have done, alll the evil thoughts that have crossed your mind, you would have to admit that you could use a little help. I can't speak to those who talk about Japan being apocalyptic and such, all I can say is that since I have become a Christian and studied the Bible and worked towards a better life, things have 'fallen into place' for me quite nicely. An impressive number of things always seem to work out for my benefit when I pray. It's not scientific, it's just anecdotal evidence, I know, but when something good happens, I automatically think, "Thank You, God."

The ultimate answer, though, is that obviously you are setting a lower standard for yourself than God does (time off for good behavior, parole and such). If god is indeed 100% pure, then nothing we can do would ever allow us into His presence. What good is good behavior when you are jealous of your neighbor? When you drink too much? When you make a pass at a woman you know to be married? We're all human, and all imperfect. It's only by the grace of Jesus Christ, and our acceptance of his sacrfice, that allows us to enter into God's presence. But if you don't believe that you have done wrong, or you think that it's "not all that bad," and you don't believe in God to begin with, I must admit I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise.

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-TP

Yes, Joe, I'm afraid I have heard too many stories of Christians running around saying they're going to heaven, and unless you jump on the bandwagon, you're going to hell. I can understand why that's an uncomfortable thought, and why you may be turned off when you hear things like that. People tried to do this even in Jesus' day, which prompted His comment, "Why do you point out the splinter in your brother's eye, and ignore the plank in your own?"
They should caveat their statements at least, and admit they don't know what wil happen after death. Nobody knows, all we have to go by is what we read in the Bible.
The funny thing is each and every religion holds the same belief, they just don't say it so loud. If there is only one truth, then by definition, everything else is false, right? Buddhism says there is no God, so how can you make that agree with Christianity? Mormons put Joseph Smith in there as an additional mediary between man and God, which 'regular' Christians simply will not accept. Those few religions that try to accept all religions just don't make any sense at all. How can I be right about God and Muslims be right, when Muslims insist Jesus was not the Son of God, merely another prophet? These irreconcilable differences mean that if you asked a Muslim, he would tell you if you do not believe that Muhammed is the prophet of God, you will go to hell. Christianity is more 'voluble' than other beliefs because of our instructions to preach the good word.

Aaron, I'm not sure that I could ever convince you; your heart seems to have been hardened. Try this analogy: you're in school, and you fail every test. Whether you score a 49% or a 59%, you can never get even a D. Any obective, third party looking at your test scores would agree that you just can't make the grade. But now imagine that God is the teacher, and He says, "You know what? I know he keeps failing, but I love him so much, I'm going to throw out the rulebook and give him one more chance. All he has to do is accept Me, and I will pass him."
In other words, we all fail, no matter what, Aaron. From my viewpoint as a Christian, God's hands aren't tied, rather He has gone out of His way to give us a chance. If God is pure, and cannot exist in the presence of sin, then we all fall short; whether we murder, commit adultery, have thoughts of road rage revenge when somebody cuts us off on the freeway, it doesn't matter. Sin is sin.
If I understand your position correctly, you are proud of yourself and think you have lived a relatively good life so far, and do not believe your soul is in danger. You see no need for God's salvation, because you don't think you have done anything "really bad" to warrant condemnation. What Christians believe is that we are all sinners, and if you look obejectively at your behavior in life, and put in the front all of the bad things you have done, all the evil thoughts that have crossed your mind, you would have to admit that you could use a little help. I can't speak to those who talk about Japan being apocalyptic and such, all I can say is that since I have become a Christian and studied the Bible and worked towards a better life, things have 'fallen into place' for me quite nicely. An impressive number of things always seem to work out for my benefit when I pray. It's not scientific, it's just anecdotal evidence, I know, but when something good happens, I automatically think, "Thank You, God."

The ultimate answer, though, is that obviously you are setting a lower standard for yourself than God does (time off for good behavior, parole and such). If God is indeed 100% pure, then nothing we can do would ever allow us into His presence. What good is good behavior when you are jealous of your neighbor? When you drink too much? When you make a pass at a woman you know to be married? We're all human, and all imperfect. It's only by the grace of Jesus Christ, and our acceptance of his sacrfice, that allows us to enter into God's presence. But if you don't believe that you have done wrong, or you think that it's "not all that bad," and you don't believe in God to begin with, I must admit I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise.

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-TP

Travis-- I think you misunderstnad Aaron's post. As I read it, he's referring to two of the age-old questions-- If there is a God who loves us, why does he allow innocent people to suffer? And if God is all-powerful, why did he create a hell to sentence people to eternal suffering? The general answer to those questions amounts to 'It's a mystery!' And that's not a good enough answer for some.

As for me, those questions really don't matter one way or the other. When I was religious, up until the time I stopped being religious, I knew the party line well enough that the contradictions didn't bother me in the slightest.

I never went through a phase of being 'troubled' about my faith. I simply woke up one day deciding that I didn't believe any of this religious stuff. The world makes perfect sense without it. I didn't find my life any more or less meaningful without it, and I certainly didn't have a less moral outlook without it. In fact, I think my moral outlook has been strengthened over the years by the fact that my morality is tied to the real world, and to my instinctive caring about and identifying with other people. My morality comes from the heart, not out of a book.

The one thing I did miss when I first stopped being religious was the belief in an afterlife. It's a bummer to think that one day, everything I think and feel will cease to exist. But you know what? Heaven has always sounded like an incredible bore, kinda creepy to tell you the truth, and I honestly wasn't looking forward to it anyway!

My heart has been hardened against god, just as my heart has been hardened against the Loch Ness Monster (which I also used to believe in.) I don't think I'm too good for hell. I think there is no hell. Give me something other than confident assertions to the contrary, and I may change my mind.

I've flunked a few classes in my day.

You can tell.

But the profs never gave me a choice along the lines of "go to hell or serve me forever." It was always "You flunk," or sometimes "Take a makeup."

And sometimes I got a seventy, and you know what? I passed with a seventy. Not a great grade, but a passing grade. If there was a god, and I earned a seventy, I'd expect to pass; not with honors or accolades, not with a Phi Beta Kappa key, not with Honors standing, but I'd expect to pass. If I had a teacher who only gave failing grades, except to the class suck-ups, the apple polishers, the brown-nosers, who got unearned perfect scores, I'd drop out of that class rather than play Regan or Goneril to his Lear. Happily I've never had that problem, because there are no teachers like that, just like there is no god.

I wanted to compliment Aaron on a particularly good post-- I laughed out loud at that opening line.

I also wanted to say that I think Travis deserves a lot of credit for having the gumption to debate against a plurality of unbelievers.

I've tried to coax some other people to join this discussion, but without much luck. I wonder why that is? Why are there nearly a thousand recent posts devoted to Dave Sim's views on women and homosexuals, and barely over a hundred concerning people's most deeply held personal convictions?

I guess some people find it too personal to discuss-- but is the way you perceive the nature of the universe really a personal matter? And some people are reluctant because it might start an arguement-- but nobody seems to mind getting into flame wars over superhero comics vs. art comics!

As a skeptic, I suspect it's because many people's views of religion and the supernatural are fragile, and don't bear questioning or close scrutiny.

But is that any way to lead a life-- believing in something and being afraid to discuss it?

Joe, I think a lot of people avoid such threads because this is the place they come to talk about comics. I usually don't read threads with titles like "Goodbye, Joey Ramone" on this or the TCJ board. Reasons for this can run from "on-line chats are not the place I discuss things like that" all the way to "why do I care what this person has to say?" the latter being why I can never imagine wanting to read Dave Sim's thoughts on manliness without being paid first -- although it's fun to scan the threads because they're so loony (I read the Smith piece because I conducted that interview with Smith).

I mean, heck, I started this thread -- inadvertently -- and don't have any great interest in participating in its discussions. Although I would like to say I disagree strongly with something you said about the point I dropped out, that Kim Thompson's done more than prayer in stopping gun violence. The way you're couching the argument limits the effects of prayer to entreaties to change reality instead of the very real comforts, insights, and practiced expressions of caring and love that prayer has no doubt brought families very close to gun violence.

In other words, prayer may not change the weather, but according to Martin Luther King, Jr. we wouldn't have had a Civil Rights movement without it. I think this is an important point, as there's really nothing in the Christian model for prayer that suggests asking for reality to be changed on the prayerful's behalf, so I personally reject it as a mode for evaluation.

I couldn't resist jumping in at this point to say that I think this has been one of the more interesting threads I've seen at COMICON.com in quite some time.

If comics are art, it's only natural that comics enthusiasts talk about the things that artists and freethinkers talk about -- politics, human psychology, religion, the state of American film, sexual politics in the new millenium, and reality television (to name just a few).

I sometimes find discussions both here and at tcj.com to be incredibly LACKING because they become mired down in topics that have been discussed to death (or have nowhere to go) such as....

(1) art comics vs. superhero comics
(2) ten-year-old conflicts between the Journal and various industry professionals
(3) Milo goes after Rick Veitch about the same old same-old
(4) Milo goes after Gene Phillips about the same old same-old
(5) message board posters who have no manners and what to do about them
(6) which posters should be banned and which threads should be shut down

More threads like this one would (IMHO) make both boards healthier.

One other point I would make is that, if some online comics grow large readerships on the web in the future, more message board discussions about comics will be in the future as well. If this is the case, people who can spark and moderate interesting and lively discussions -- which aren't laden with personal attacks and insults -- are an invaluable part of the future of comics.

Online comics are just one form of communication. Message board posts are another. Perhaps if the quality of discourse went up a notch or two here, more people would want to become involved in these discussions, more people would want to create comics, and more people would want to read them

[This message has been edited by Ben Adams (edited 04-19-2001).]

Without prayer, blacks wouldn't have done anything about the history of injustice to which they were subjected? Sounds like King thought of it as an entreaty to change reality. What good is a prayer if the hope it perpetuates isn't based on the possibility of something better being sent the praying's way?