Page 2 of 32 < 1 2 3 4 ... 31 32 >
Topic Options
#462134 - 04/04/01 05:08 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Maybe not solely, but certainly enough to result in "Tomcats" being the number 4 movie in America...

The difference between, say, a novel getting written up in the NYT and Chris Ware's work is that people may read a novel review and, if the material interests them, buy the book. But if they read a review of a comic book, their reaction may well be, "Oh, but *I don't read comics.*" And they will not buy it for that reason and that reason alone. It doesn't matter whether the material is adult or not. They wouldn't want to read it because the format itself is associated with juveniles and idiots, and they wouldn't want to be thought of as either one.



Thanks, Peter. The NYTimes book column is targetted at two classes of people--the purchasing managers at bookstores and the people who read books as something more than mindless entertainment. Those folks will not be impressed by the term "graphic literature" or by a page of comics that takes ten minutes to read (one of the salient points of the Times article). As a matter of fact, I'm not impressed by a page of comics that takes ten minutes to read--my first thought is "Is the story-telling so convoluted that it takes that long to figure out how to follow the art?"
_________________________
Best, Pat

Top
#462135 - 04/04/01 05:11 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Kim Thompson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 0
JIMMY CORRIGAN has been at that level at Amazon consistently for the last many months. In any event, I don't think they adjust their figures THAT fast (as in, reflecting sales from the early part of the day).

Not to be unduly suspicious, but given past shenanigans on the board, I'm not 100% convinced that the above post is actually from Peter "But I Digress" David. (Hey, once burned, twice shy.) It seems odd that David would suddenly, after years of silence on these boards, post about a subject like this, and that he'd leave his e-mail address (a suspiciously anonymous e-mail address at that) for all to see. If I were Rick and Steve I'd double check it.

Top
#462136 - 04/04/01 05:14 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
168 on the Amazon list when I looked, and that number is NOT directly related to actual sales of the book.

A favorable review in any major publication that is respected is going to have an effect. The reviewer also knows this when researching the artist.

I note with interest that the fifth paragraph mentions the relevance - that interest in alternative comics is on the rise, resulting in an upcoming feature film. (Tie in to the real [monetary] reward for obscure art).

Perhaps the "Oprah Effect" has the additional benefit of readers actively seeking out similar stories. On the other hand, a author's followup book to an "Oprah Book Club" selection often goes completely untouched, so I hear.

The same can be speculated for this work. The sales generated as a direct result of a favorable article in the NYTimes will not guarantee heavy ongoing sales.

In the meantime, more power to anyone that gets in reviewed in the NYTImes.

Walt Stone

Top
#462137 - 04/04/01 05:17 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Elayne Riggs Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/99
Posts: 2983
Loc: Bronx, NY, USA
Quote:
Not to be unduly suspicious, but given past shenanigans on the board, I'm not 100% convinced that the above post is actually from Peter "But I Digress" David. (Hey, once burned, twice shy.) It seems odd that David would suddenly, after years of silence on these boards, post about a subject like this, and that he'd leave his e-mail address (a suspiciously anonymous e-mail address at that) for all to see. If I were Rick and Steve I'd double check it.


I think you're definitely being paranoid here, Kim. Peter's been using that AOL address for years; he and Pat are friends so I don't have a problem with the idea of him supporting Pat's conclusions; he may not have even BEEN on these boards until now (it does read "junior member" under his name, and your assumption that he's been lurking here ["years of silence"]sounds pretty dubious considering his prolific posts on other boards!); and the posting style is certainly his.

- Elayne
_________________________
"Life is truly normal only when people feel safe enough to critique, defend, and analyze art and popular culture." - Lisa Schwarzbaum
Click here for my blog, Pen-Elayne on the Web
Click here for Robin Riggs' latest interview

Top
#462138 - 04/04/01 05:19 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by ATKokmen:

Ergo, the New York Times article is resulting in increased sales for Chris Ware's book, in at least some identifiable venues.

Q.E.D.

[This message has been edited by ATKokmen (edited 04-04-2001).]


Okay, now understand I'm a latecomer to this, but the key phrase seemed to me to be "General Public." For me, the question is not whether positive write-ups in the NYT impacts on sales. I'd be surprised if it didn't. The question is whether the "general public", which I take it is defined as those who do not typically read comics, will be prompted to buy it.

Positive reviews of "Jimmy Corrigan" (which I've also seen in "Entertainment Weekly") might prompt someone who is already a comic reader to pick it up. But someone who *doesn't already read comics?* A member of the "general public?" I'm very skeptical of that. Positive reviews of "Cavalier and Klay" made the book a top seller. You can't possibly convince me that it would have had the same sales success if "Cavalier and Klay" had been a graphic novel instead.

It's not dissimilar from, say, the stigma that science fiction has attached to it. There are many, many viewers who will not watch the Sci-Fi Channel based purely on the name. "I don't watch science fiction," they'll maintain. "Science fiction doesn't interest me." They associate the term "science fiction" with geeks, weirdos, and nerds.

Yet these same people will think nothing of watching and enjoying "Terminator II" or "Back to the Future" or "The Truman Show," all of which are science fiction. Because they don't think of it as SF.

People are not logical in their likes, dislikes and tastes, and many will continue to shun comics based purely on the negative associations they put to the format. That's just the reality of it, no matter how many dismissive "End of discussions" some people may want to attach to it.

PAD

PAD

Top
#462139 - 04/04/01 06:28 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Heidi MacDonald Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 1465
Loc: New York, New York
Pat: While I don't have any real, hard data to support this, I would say that ask any publisher if a positive review in the New York Times will increase sales. If the answer isn't "yes" then I would be somewhat astonished.

And now, in what will come as a surprise to many, let me state that while I *do* strongly disagree with Pat's contention that difficult material isn't of interest to the "general public (I think all the good press ACME has received in the NYT, Time and EW would disprove that), I do think that the NYT does play to a slighly different audiene. Call it the "Dalton School" crowd. What I do see as the end result of all the good press for Ware is that he is, along with art spiegleman, "safe" for *ANYONE* to buy without fear of being branded lowbrow. New York's true culture mavens (George Plimpton to Adam Gopnik) are a finicky crowd, and pop culture doesn't play in Turtle Bay. But clearly, a copy of ACME or LITTLE LIT on the coffee table is now a status symbol everywhere.

Btw, seeing Joe Sacco quoted along with spiegleman, and in Time magazine makes me think that he's a dark horse to join in "In" crowd.

Finally, Nat, I honestly didn't start this thread as another Pat-bashing fest. So let's every one keep it semi civil.
_________________________
Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!

Top
#462140 - 04/04/01 06:38 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Red Tall Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/31/01
Posts: 30
Peter David [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Welcome, just one of my favorite comic authors. You grace this board with your presence.

Just ignore Kim, from what I understand he's in a "family way".

Top
#462141 - 04/04/01 06:53 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
geedis Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/00
Posts: 13263
Loc: AZ
For those of us following along on the Home Version: If Kim Thompson or Gary Groth end a paragraph with the word "period", does that mean they automatically win the argument?

Just noticed a pattern there. (insert stupid winking-smilie here if you must)
_________________________
Comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable

Top
#462142 - 04/04/01 07:27 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
Mute Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/98
Posts: 465
Quote:
Originally posted by Pat ONeill:
As a matter of fact, I'm not impressed by a page of comics that takes ten minutes to read--my first thought is "Is the story-telling so convoluted that it takes that long to figure out how to follow the art?"


My first thought is "Why the hell don't you buy the book and find out for yourself?" For years on Usenet, you asserted that you would never buy Acme Novelty Library because you didn't want any of your money going to Gary Groth. Even when other people offered to send you issues for free, you demurred on the grounds that money would still be indirectly Groth-bound on your behalf.

Now we're talking about a book that's been published by Bertelsmann AG, a German-owned huge multinational conglomerate -your fave! So what's stopping you from finally purchasing some of Ware's work (or even going into a bookshop and looking at it on the shelf!), and discovering for yourself that the reason it takes so long to read is that the storytelling is so complex, layered and intricate that you can spend that long on some pages if you wish?

Note that I'm not talking about why the general public don't go and find out. Nor am I looking to be told that supermarkets sell more Mills & Boon romance novels than they do copies of Ulysses, and therefore Joyce sucks because his writing is too complex, layered and intricate. I'm specifically asking you, Pat, why you are insisting on arguing from a position of wilful ignorance.

-Chris Breach

edited for ubb hangover in pat's quote

[This message has been edited by Mute (edited 04-04-2001).]

Top
#462143 - 04/04/01 07:58 PM Re: Pat O'Neill: Please Explain
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
I've read the damn thing, and I would say Pat's not missing much . I coulda found something better to do with the thirty bucks.
_________________________
If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
-- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon

Top
Page 2 of 32 < 1 2 3 4 ... 31 32 >