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#462846 - 04/15/01 03:06 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Ken Rothstein Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 519
Loc: NY, NY USA
Wow, this comicon board certainly has seen some mega threads lately!

I skimmed some of the rant. Frankly it was too boring to read it all since it basically is just social conservatism tainted with preconceptions and the preconceptions are presumed to be fact on which to base the social conservatism.

That said, it does seem to me that Sim did touch on a couple of large issues that do need to be discussed at some point by someone other than Oprah, but unfortunately he is not a talented enough writer to discuss them coherently.

Government sponsored day care is something that has some illogic to it. The truth is the family has by and large abdicated much of the responsibilty of raising children in order for all the adults to pursue careers, but it also is no longer the case where dad can go to work and raise a family in a house with two cars and everyone has food on the table. Plus, women do need to derive satisfaction from their careers and there is no good reason why women should not be able to strive every bit as much as men.

I also agree to some extent that yes, it does suck that men are not allowed to have clubs or instituions where they can be members but women can. No health club of note is allowed to bar women, but women are certainly allowed to have such things like Elayne Powers (or whatever that is), a health club chain for women alone. Any time a mens club has sought to keep it men only, women have filed suit to break down that barrier. This happened at my college fraternity, and frankly, we all thought it was war declared on us by what Rush Limbaugh calls "feminazis". After all, none of us wanted to join a sorority, so why can't they leave us alone?

Then again, it is tough to escape the fact that a lot of deals can be made on the golf course or in a room filled with cigars and old men reading the Wall St Journal. Women do need access to where the power is, and since there is currently little to no power meetings done at health clubs for women, but my fraternity alumni has included past Presidents, CEOs, and CIA and FBI Directors, allowing boys to be boys and girls to be girls does not equate to true equality. But still, I want my fraternity male only, and emotionally feel there is no reason why it should be forced to change.

The views on family are interesting. Sim is quite right that the disciplining of children has been around for centuries and managed to not endanger the human race and actually produce some very talented and accomplished individuals, and that the current trend to say "discipline is wrong" does seem to coincide with american teens who can't tell you what year WW II began, and spend all their time cultivating bad manners, this notion that only fathers know when to discipline their children seems out of left field. What is amazing is his total disrespect for his own mother in this tirade. Perhaps his father didn't bring him up right, but if I was a kid speaking so badly about women, my father would have put me on the spot and asked "what about your mother?" and if my answer wasn't satisfactory, I would have experienced the hard facts of being uncomfortable while sitting--but good.

Spanking ones wife seems right out of "I Love Lucy". It just seems silly. And it seems to ignore the possibility that just as he feels male children need to be disciplined, and adult women need that same discipline, he allows for no possibility that adult males need the very same treatment. Of course, if any adult male needs a wake up call it is Sim himself. Since there is no authority figure to which Sim can surrender himself to, he has to settle for being a candidate for getting his ass thoroughly kicked by someone whose sole point is "shut up, no one asked you, and speak when you are spoken to"

I am not sure where he gets his ideas that women cannot think logically (or whatever that point was). While men have been scratching their heads forever wondering how women think, there are certainly enough women in history to prove Sim a putz. I do believe women and men think differently but one is no less efficient than the other. Anyway, I say get Hillary Clinton or Margaret Thatcher to debate Sim on the qualifications of women as logical thinkers, and see how Sim fares. I imagine both, and just about any woman able to string together words in a sentence, would make him look like a fool. Hell, even Alica Kramden would make short work of Sim.

But I do think this idea of spanking naughty wives has definite possibilities [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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#462847 - 04/15/01 03:09 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
PatrickB Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/01
Posts: 3
Loc: Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by jasontrimmer:

Second, yes I read Tangents (online, not in the issue) and I believe that many of the responses to it and to my post miss the point. In print anyway, and I have no idea what Dave is like as a personal friend, I do not think he exhibits hatred for women.



I disagree. I think most rational people would.

Quote:


Arguments to the contrary (again based on his printed views) strike me as par for the course in this age. How many times in magazines and on news shows on TV do we here people accuse politicians of hatred (esp. George W. Bush and other Republicans) when there are profound ideological differences. Dave's views are conservative. Many people on-line and on college campuses (I attend Ohio University) are liberal in bent. Great. I don't accuse liberals of hatred, but they sure as hell accuse Dave, George, myself, or ANYONE with a differing view of hatred.



Oh. A conservative. A self-pitying conservative in a country in which the word "liberal" is a deadly slur. It is not Dave Sim's views on taxation and the like which cause offence and are characterised as "hatred". It is his views on women. This is because his views on women are self-evidently vile. However you as a conservative feel so embattled and persecuted, despite having your man in the White House, that you are willing to side with anyone with conservative political opinions no matter how outrageous his views are on other matters.

Quote:


Specifically, no one has discussed Dave's views on say taxation and the welfare state or alimony. Or abortion.



Try the Comics Journal's message board, where abortion has been discussed (see http://www.tcj.com/messboard/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000357.html ). As for taxation, welfare etc, these have not been discussed because they are not what have horrified people about Sim's views. They are, sadly, pretty mainstream, which is to say mean-spirited and resentful of those less fortunate, as most conservative positions could be characterised.

Quote:


Calling Dave 'crazy','mad', or misguided because he expresses these views about women and where he thinks feminism went wrong politically is akin to blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine. Talk about no logic.



I don't think Sim is crazy, mad or misguided. I think he's a nasty, rotten piece of work.

Quote:


Interestingly, today's Columbus Dispatch has a review in the Arts section of 'Subject to Debate' by Katha Pollitt (a former writer for the Nation magazine). Here is an interesting quote (from her book):"Women whose subject is women are allowed to be flamboyant, egocentric, even rude, because they are safely ensconced in a gender-based category, in which they compete with one another and not with men." Well, we've seen what happens when a man speaks his piece here, haven't we?



Oh, stop whining and take responsibility for yourself.

Patrick

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#462848 - 04/15/01 05:05 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Snowtibet Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/01
Posts: 1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jasontrimmer:

>> I believe Mr. Sim has made his arguments very clearly, very eloquently, and in the case of the anecdote about the Reverand King, quite profoundly.<<

You're obviously unacquainted with actual clarity, eloquence, and profundity, then.

S

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#462849 - 04/15/01 07:15 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Chris Knowles Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/99
Posts: 875
Loc: USA
You know all this debate is obscuring the more important issue- mainly that Cerebus is dull as dishwater, slower than molasses and more static than cling.

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#462850 - 04/15/01 07:18 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Chris Knowles Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/99
Posts: 875
Loc: USA
Flood Control Proceedures are a bitch.

[This message has been edited by Chris Knowles (edited 04-15-2001).]

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#462851 - 04/15/01 08:24 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Kim Thompson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 0
You can say that again!

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#462852 - 04/15/01 08:26 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Heidi MacDonald Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 1465
Loc: New York, New York
Quote:
Originally posted by Kim Thompson:
I apologize for saying misogyny is a bad thing. I apologize for saying that someone who would write a 20-page essay on gender roles that affixes all blame for all current social problems on the "feminist/homosexualist axis" (replete with the kind of lunatic leaps of logic that better men and women than I have already pointed out) is in any way losing it. I applaud Jason Trimmer for attempting to bring a level of civility to this sewer of a board, and scold Rick Veitch for his refusal to help out by banning me. (That libelous bastard Steve Bissette should join me in purgatory, of course.) Have you no decency, sir?


Kim, I applaud you for seeing the error of your ways, and finally beginning to think logically -- like a man, in fact. I know that over the years your gender-ambiguous name has given you many opportunities to stray from the god-given intellect with which your penis enodws you. But you are winning the battle, and we all support you in that. Thank god, the secular feminists are one step closer to being defeated today!

I have also seen the error of my ways. When I went to sleep last night, I was convinced Jason Trimmer was some troll in the employ of Dorothy Light. Knowing that a real man with his powers of logic, ethics, and rational thinking walks among us will have me sleeping very peacefully tonight.

Steve Lieber, your snotty comment about truly knowing a man made me spit soy milk over my keyboard, and has ruined my computer, rendering me incapable of continuing my studies into eliminating my hurtful, dangerous emotions. You are an evil, emotional threat to lights everywhere, and clearly a closet homosexualist.
_________________________
Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!

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