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#462646 - 04/10/01 10:47 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
I think I understand Kim's legitimate intentions in posting the essay to the internet. My only concern is that he might be inadvertently contributing to the disemination of hate literature. If you get tens of thousands of hits every day for this thing, Kim, are you gonna be concerned?
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Joe Zabel

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#462647 - 04/10/01 10:53 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Gary Groth Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 100
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Gore Vidal was the first to coin the term homosexualist, if I remember correctly, sometime in the late '70s. I suspect that's where Sim picked up he term. (Sim's reading habits are like horse-drppings; he apparently read Vidal in the course of his Hemingway research.)

For what it's worth, I agreed to debate Sim over the course of several Cerebuses over self-publishing and other matters related to the comics industry over which we disagree. Although I'm having second thoughts because...

It's all starting to look like a PR stunt. First, he 'calls out' Jeff Smith and creates a buzz; next, he writes this demented screed (attacking Howard Cruise), which will creata a buzz. Next, he invites me to a running debate over several issues of Cerebus (which may create further buzz). I'm beginning to think he may not have done this in the spirit of Socratic exchange...

I believe the Sim piece will be up on our web site by midnight tonight.

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#462648 - 04/10/01 10:58 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Mute Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/98
Posts: 465
Quote:
Originally posted by Steven Lieber:
The term "homosexualist" is sometimes used to refer to those, including heterosexuals, who promote or condone homosexuality. It's also sometimes used by strict grammarians who insist that "homosexual" should only be used as an adjective. I'm not sure which of these, if either, applies to Sim.


The latter. At least when he started using it, with credit to Gore Vidal for alerting him to the grammatical inaccuracy of "homosexual" as a noun.

EDIT: Oops. Gary posted while I was typing...

-Chris Breach



[This message has been edited by Mute (edited 04-10-2001).]

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#462649 - 04/10/01 11:12 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
savage Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/98
Posts: 1007
Loc: Minneapolis,MN USA
I've been under the impression for years that alot of what Sim does is a PR stunt.
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Justin Savage
President/Editor/Web-bozo
www.sabresedge.com

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#462650 - 04/10/01 11:21 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
John Roberson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/98
Posts: 492
Loc: Chicago
I'm just very depressed and sick, partly because he was one of my five biggest influences (and a supportive one too) and I've made frequent lame efforts to defend him. But you know, I love women, I have lots of male & female gay friends...I don't think it's political correctness to then have a major problem with this, is it?

This just hits a bit close to the bone. I hope no one minds if I just lurk on this subject for the time being.
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Bottomless Studio
Creator of Vitriol, and the upcoming October Surprise, and FALLING SKY...

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#462651 - 04/10/01 11:35 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Dave Knott Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/99
Posts: 701
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Groth:
It's all starting to look like a PR stunt.


Except that, if it's a PR stunt, then his whole life is a PR stunt.
We've seen enough first-hand reports of Sim's behaviour that it's clear that it's a stunt that he devotes himself to twenty-four hours a day, three hundred and sixty-five days a year.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but if a man is defined by his actions, then Sim has given himself a very disturbing definition indeed.

later,
dave

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#462652 - 04/10/01 11:38 PM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
'For what it's worth, I agreed to debate Sim over the course of several Cerebuses over self-publishing and other matters related to the comics industry over which we disagree.'

I think over use of words should be discouraged.
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Joe Zabel

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#462653 - 04/11/01 12:55 AM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
stroh Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/99
Posts: 360
Loc: Baltimore, MD U.S.A.
>deleted<

[This message has been edited by stroh (edited 04-11-2001).]

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#462654 - 04/11/01 01:25 AM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Alias Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/99
Posts: 1115
Loc: Las Vegas Nevada USA
Gary,
Have you considered that perhaps you may be capable of doing some good by debunking some of Dave's views that you disagree with, and that whatever PR he gets out of the deal will be more than offset by the good of the debunking?
I'm just curious as to what exactly are the pros and cons that make up your second thoughts.
Also, I'd really love to read this debate!

Jim Brocius

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#462655 - 04/11/01 02:59 AM Re: Dave Sim Tangents
Matthewwave Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 4993
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
"The irony of all this is that I've always assumed Sim was himself gay. Don't ask me why, but I just had the strange idea that he left Deni Loubert for Gerhard."

No -- you're thinking of Jan Wenner.

Many thanx to the Fanta folks for posting this thing, so I don't have to either A) buy the thing (which I won't do), or B) stand in the comic book shop for the length of a twenty-page text piece (which I'm possibly fucking stupid enough to do...)

I've basically kept a distance from all things Sim up til now. He just hasn't seemed terribly worth it. But now, with this piece being free and all, I think I might jump in -- he's not only "addressing" the Feminist in me, but the fag as well.

I guess what it is is that I, too, am beginning to want to figure out what his motivations are -- is it an act? A PR stunt? A real mission on his part?

I have a sneaking suspicion that altho I'm sure he's aware of the PR potential, and grateful for any of it's realization, that it's mostly just a kind of indulgence of ego. Remember back to your high school days -- or perhaps the last time you read someone getting nasty, offensive on these boards, or the Journal boards... You know as well as I that people are plenty capable of spouting heated, even hurtful, hateful rant for no greater reasons than simply pushing buttons and getting attention. There doesn't have to be any real "heart" behind it, nor any practical gain. If others will read it and respond to it, then the instigators' dicks are hard.

Sim is in a particularly advantageous position to thusly indulge himself. He's got the venue of his own book, which he has total control over, and he's an industry celeb. He's a self-publisher, bub! Nay, THE self-publisher!!! Tongues WILL wag! Even I, who have eluded his siren (that is, the siren of the ambulance at the horrible highway accident you can't help but stare at...) call to this point, am considering checking out The Gospel.

My biggest fear is that the epic will amount to little more than an even mixture of maddeningly ignorant and boring -- ie, another big load of all the same old sexist, homophobic crap I've encountered for nearly three decades. What if the newest spin he's got to put on things is a "Hey, look at me, I'm Dave Sim!" kind of edge?

Well, at least I'll finally know what some of the tongue-wagging is about, first-hand...

Matthew

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