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#464687 - 05/07/01 06:59 AM Re: Hey Pat,
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
(just a quick digression for Sam)

Hey Sam, did you know that IBM developed a smart punchcard system (actually, a technician named Hollerith did) that they sold to Hitler that let him efficiently trace, find and catalogue every Jew in Europe in the late 1920's and early 1930's? No one knew why the trains ran on time then now they do.

Did you know they could efficiently incinerate 5734 Jews a day in the combined crematoria, and they had that all worked out with the punchcard system too?

Pretty cool, don't you think?

(sorry for the interruption, now back to our regularly scheduled thread)

[This message has been edited by jack (edited 05-07-2001).]

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#464688 - 05/07/01 07:05 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
I notice that Brent and Kim have not answered my question about the chilling effect. Presumably they can't.

Charles, I don't know the long, ridiculous history of Pat's feud with the Comics Journal, so I don't presume to judge him. As far as being willfully ignorant, if you're not aware of the 'army' I referred to, perhaps you're not qualified to be casting stones. (Pat does take the stance of being willfully ignorant of Fantagraphics publishing output while still maintaining the right to criticize it. I don't agree with this stance, but I don't think less of Pat personally just because of this disagreement.)

I do appreciate the distinction you draw between Pat and some of the venal ignoramuses who occasionally post to this board.

Perhaps we should also make a distinction between the disputed fairness of Pat's opinions and the personal insults leveled at him by the other side.
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#464689 - 05/07/01 07:34 AM Re: Hey Pat,
brent Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 11
Joezabel:
"do you think it might have just a little bit of a CHILLING EFFECT on free discussion to set a small army of vitriolic fact-twisters after a guy, just because he dares to criticize the Comics Journal? I don't agree with Pat's opinions, but I am damned sick of this."

No. Pat usually answers all questions posed. He seems to not care about criticism.

Joe, it's not Pat's critcizm of the Journal I fault him for. It's his general attitude about the alternative market essentially being a bunch of whiners that create books about "miserable people with miserable lives," and his stubborness in never admitting he's wrong.

Besides, I'm really curious about his hypocrisy in the above matter.

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#464690 - 05/07/01 08:28 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
What's the difference between the journalistas elitism and yours? I mean, why continue to attack them for their attitudes towards the mainstream when you have the same attitude towards the alternatives?


elite-- A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them" (Times Literary Supplement).

elitism--The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

While I believe the above definitions answer the question sufficiently, I will elaborate:

One cannot be "elitist" about the tastes of the vast majority of any group. The very definitions of "elite" and "elitism" preclude it.

As to whether I will answer this question and why:

Yes, I've answered. Not to answer a serious question directed to me would be cowardice. But I will not comment further on anything in this thread.
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Best, Pat

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#464691 - 05/07/01 12:35 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
In answering my question about the 'chilling effect,' Brent said, 'No. Pat usually answers all questions posed. He seems to not care about criticism.'

Wrong on three counts. First, the assault on Pat does not consist merely of criticism. No one can be faulted for making legitimate criticism of Pat's views. But the assault also consists of insults, name-calling, and the posting of unflattering portraits of Pat in an attempt to ridicule him.

Second, Pat obviously does care about such attacks; he even requested that the portrait graphic be removed.

Thirdly, the chilling effect consists of the inhibition of dialog by the entire comics community. It's obviously a campaign to discourage criticism of the journal, and of alternative comics. As an alternative cartoonist myself, I want no part of such a campaign.
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#464692 - 05/07/01 12:39 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Mainstream comics logic is often confusing.

Consider: Recently at the local shop, a clerk rhapsodized to me about a comic book concerning a "Police force for superheroes". When I declined to check it out and asked about the HATE annual he responded "Oh yeah, I forgot you like that WEIRD stuff."

So in other words, a comic about people and situations you might actually encounter is "Weird" while a comic about services for imaginary beings is not.

Look for my new comic book "Leprechaun Emergency Trama Unit" this fall.



[This message has been edited by Steve Hogan (edited 05-07-2001).]
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#464693 - 05/07/01 01:10 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Looking back through Pat's post elitism doesn't sound half bad.
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#464694 - 05/07/01 01:56 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Looking back through Pat's post elitism doesn't sound half bad.


Until, of course, you find out that you don't fit the elite's criteria for inclusion.

Or don't any of you remember the in-crowd in high school? And not being a part of it?
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Best, Pat

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#464695 - 05/07/01 02:33 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Kim Thompson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by joezabel:
Another question, Brent and Kim-- do you think it might have just a little bit of a CHILLING EFFECT on free discussion to set a small army of vitriolic fact-twisters after a guy, just because he dares to criticize the Comics Journal? I don't agree with Pat's opinions, but I am damned sick of this.


That's ridiculous. Nat Gertler, who has no love whatsoever for Gary Groth or the JOURNAL, is one of the main Pat-disputers. Pat gets argued with because his opinions are stupid, not because there's some "army" out to get him. And Pat is certainly not reticent about wading into these discussions even when his name has not been brought up.

I don't agree with Eric's posting the Pat/Pussey thing, although I think it's a case of Eric misjudging how it would be interpreted.

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#464696 - 05/07/01 02:45 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Quote:
Originally posted by Pat ONeill:
Or don't any of you remember the in-crowd in high school? And not being a part of it?


If I remember correctly, the "In-crowd" was the POPULAR kids right? The ones with the most MASS APPEAL?

John Hughes movies aside, I guess what Pat is saying is that we shouldn't have higher aspirations because that would mean we were trying to be better than someone else. [img]/resources/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
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