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#464957 - 05/21/01 09:14 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Hasn't manufacturing moved south because southerners will work for dirt cheap wages?


Of course...but the next question is, "why are acceptable wages so much lower in the South?" (Or why were they--it isn't the case any longer, for the most part.)

The answer is--the long subjugation of the black population. Unionism never gained a major foothold in the South, as it did in the North, because a Southern employer could always say, "Fine--you go on strike and I'll bring in a bunch of niggers who will work for half what you're getting now."
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#464958 - 05/21/01 09:21 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Pat:
You never replied to my speculations regarding the similar subject matter of HATE and CATCHER IN THE RYE, so let me restate the question:
If you assert that HATE is pretentious for whatever reason, and that (as I understand your past reasoning) its humble sales are proof that it appeals only to the "artsy-farsty" crowd...

AND if you concede that there is a distinct parallel in the subject matter of HATE (at least in the "Buddy"-centered version) and CATCHER-- both being about young low-income teens bumming around trying to make sense out of the chaos of life--

THEN how is it possible that CATCHER IN THE RYE was a bestseller? Why wasn't it too "pretentious" to sell to large audiences?


I ignored the question because I see no comparisons in terms of theme or content between the two works.
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#464959 - 05/21/01 10:53 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Dan Pussey Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 6
Loc: nowhere, everywhere
"I see no comparisons in terms of theme or content between the two works."

How would you know? You haven't even read it.

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#464960 - 05/21/01 05:53 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
I think the above comment is a bit offline.

I have to agree with Pat on this one. Compare Catcher In The Rye to Hate?

No offense to the literary work known as HATE, but you are comparing a known classic to something that has not yet (the key word) been given a history or currency that is comparable to Salingers' work.

Give it a rest.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#464961 - 05/21/01 06:08 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Pete Charles Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 387
Loc: Lost Angeles, Cafilornia
Sam, the point isn't whether or not the two could be compared, but whether the two can be compared unless they've both been read.

While I enjoy Hate (a lot), I'd have to agree that it lacks both the intellectual rigor and wonderfully captured nuances that the Salinger book has. Never the less, the two do mine the same milieu and they're both wonderfully successful at doing so. Even if Hate is a lesser work, it's still very much in the same vein and there are a large number of points of comparison, some of which would certainly favor Hate.

If you hadn't read either of the works, then there's really no way to make an informed comparison between the two, and Pat has consistantly admitted to not having read Hate. Therefore it's not unreasonable to state that Pat isn't in a position to argue the relative merits of the two books.

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#464962 - 05/21/01 10:38 PM Re: Hey Pat,
brent Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 11
Pat:
"I ignored the question because I see no comparisons in terms of theme or content between the two works."

How do you know what the content of Hate is? I thought it was the kind of pretentious claptrap that you don't read?

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#464963 - 05/22/01 01:48 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Charles Reece Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Quote:
Charles sez: "Multiple interpretations don't mean that a work is necessarily enlightening to a more literate reader."

Gene replies: That's true up to a point, Charles. However, to steer us back to the murky waters of relativism, said enlightenment depends in part on the tastes of that "more literate reader." If I write an essay that demonstrates that one can find more than superficial entertainment in Superman, Star Trek, or the Narnia books, and I claim a certain value for that additional level of meaning, then you can do one of two things: (1) not read my essay and claim that any proofs I offer are irrelevant 'cause you're sure that stuff IS just superficial crap-- which is substantially the same "know-nothing" attitude of which Pat is being accused, [Ö]


I donít necessarily see anything wrong with Patís assertion in the abstract, itís just his application that Iíve a problem with. Weíll always have the problem of inference, that oneís general statement doesnít hold for a particular sometime down the road. However, some tokens are easier to classify than others, and Iíd submit Pat continues get it ass backwards as to which works are likely easily dismissed and which arenít. Iíve felt relatively safe in dismissing most of Marvelís stuff in the 90s, but itís obvious that Iíd be a fool to do the same of Fantagraphicsí. Anyway, on to the second half of your disjunctive:

Quote:
[Ö] or (2) read the essay and come up with assertions as to why the extra level of meaning I've found is inconsequential and jejune and all that jazz.
In other words, if someone makes a claim for greater meaning in a given work, that claim has to be assessed by a "literate reader," or else he's just blowing smoke about what he thinks he knows.
For the record, I'm on Nat's side that the Superman origin story IS a classic, but it's a classic in its own bailiwick: it doesn't deserve to be classed with MOBY DICK but with great folktales like RED RIDING HOOD. Not all re-workings of an original tale have to be "tired," as you put it: some reworkings can be inventive in their own way, adding elements not in the original that are interesting in their own right. F'r instance, in Siegel's original newspaper-strip continuity for the origin, the crux of the story is that either Jor-L or Lara or Kal-L alone could escape Krypton's destruction, and that both parents nobly choose to save their child.
In a late-40's retelling, though, I think by Bill Finger, it's posited that Lara could have escaped with her child, but rejects the choice to [live] in order to die with her husband. I find both the original and the reworking psychologically interesting, as much as the various retellings of RED RIDING HOOD.


Just what does Superman have to say about such issues? Anything relevant, or is it just that some moral dilemma is necessarily implicated by any story we tell, no matter how insignificant the story itself might be? Given enough interpretive will, potential meaning is infinite, even for Supermanís origin story, but why not choose something that is more readily giving?

Do you really think it the caliber of Brothers Grimm? Their tales are very pointed in their moral lessons, whereas the Superman tale rids us of any real ethical (and therefore ďrealĒ) constraints, because one canít have ethics with, what amounts to, an all powerful being. (Not that Gene would be tempted, but spare me the obvious fanboy reply here: I know Supes could only hop in the original version and heís allergic to Kryptonite Ė the point is that we all know heíll never lose, never die, etc.). By asking the reader to identify with such a character, they need feel no ethical weight to a decision. Just because Superman touches base with recurring ethical themes doesnít make it a classic folktale, since it eschews any relation between an ethical idea and itís practice. Fundamentally, his origin tale is escapist and, much more inexcusably, itís told poorly, making it escapist crud. Sure, someone might write an interesting essay on why people like such things, but thatís more of a socio-psychological question than an aesthetic one based on the story iteself. For example, what you seem to find interesting is the dilemma, not the storyís version of the dilemma.

I know Iíll have to specify more clearly what I mean as soon as you get all anti-dichotomous on me, but weíll leave it at that for now.
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#464964 - 05/22/01 05:26 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Pete,

The real problem is that some folks get wound up when their literary tastes are trashed or demeaned. The bottom line is who cares? Why does is bother you at all?

I have had people trash friends of mine who are talented artists on several occasions. Why bother engage them at all? I am not going to change their mind, so why waste my time and effort?

Let Pat say what he wants, tell him to have a nice day and move on.

To extend the arguement, a lot of folks write about death, but since none of them of experienced it when they wrote about it, what qualifies them to have written about it? Do you see my point? It is a point of reference, that's all....

IMHO, you can tell a book by its' cover, by the people who rave about it etc. etc. I have NEVER read Catcher in the Rye either. I have no burning desire to read it either any more than I do HATE.

Pat,

I may have missed it, but what is the difference between you and the TCJ (or the journalists that Brent spoke of)crowd? I think that was the original question posed to you at the genesis of this thread.

Thanks,

Samuel
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"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#464965 - 05/22/01 08:52 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
Pat,

I may have missed it, but what is the difference between you and the TCJ (or the journalists that Brent spoke of)crowd? I think that was the original question posed to you at the genesis of this thread.

Thanks,

Samuel


Oh, heck, *I* can answer that. Pat thinks they're elitist snobs, and they think Pat's a blithering idiot. There's the difference.

PAD

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#464966 - 05/22/01 10:05 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Pete Charles Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 387
Loc: Lost Angeles, Cafilornia
Samuel wrote;

"To extend the arguement, a lot of folks write about death, but since none of them of experienced it when they wrote about it, what qualifies them to have written about it? Do you see my point? It is a point of reference, that's all...."

To which I reply;


Sam-

I see your point, but it's not analogous. One can't truly experience death's full ramifications and comment upon it while still in the mortal veil, thus we're left to surmise it's ramifications on the living who've felt it's side effects and wonder about the impending experience. Literature, on the other hand, doesn't provide an experience where-by one is no longer physically able to argue it's merits. The comparison IS amusing, but beyond the joke it doesn't stand up.

Sam also wrote;

"IMHO, you can tell a book by its' cover..."

To which I can only respond by saying that I hope you're joshing. If your not I hope that you're aware that you've described a process that will enable you to bypass some of life's most incredible intricacies.

Then Sam wrote

"I have NEVER read Catcher in the Rye either. I have no burning desire to read it either any more than I do HATE."

To which I can only respond;

Sam-

I understand your reluctance to sample Fantagraphic products, although I truly believe that you're doing yourself a disservice, but to disregard a classic and brilliant piece of literature like Catcher in the Rye is to be cheating yourself out of an incredibly moving experience. Do yourself a favor and spend an evening reading the book. There's a reason that it's become a classic, and it's not because some group of people arbitrarily put that label on it. It's part and parcel of what makes classic literature such a rewarding experience

-Pete

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