Page 3 of 31 < 1 2 3 4 5 ... 30 31 >
Topic Options
#464697 - 05/07/01 05:37 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Pat ONeill:
Or don't any of you remember the in-crowd in high school? And not being a part of it?


If I remember correctly, the "In-crowd" was the POPULAR kids right? The ones with the most MASS APPEAL?


No, the "in-crowd" are the ones who are viewed by the student body as "special"--the jocks, the cheerleaders, the class presidents. They may have been "popular" in the sense that everybody wanted to be part of that clique, if only for the prestige (false as it may have been), but they were also viewed as mean-spirited to those they considered beneath them, exclusionary ("this is our table"), and far too sold on themselves for their own good.

Quote:
John Hughes movies aside, I guess what Pat is saying is that we shouldn't have higher aspirations because that would mean we were trying to be better than someone else.


No, I'm saying that announcing yourself as being better than everybody else is wrong. It's not up to you to pronounce yourself superior. That's what elitists do--"We're the top, you're not."

[edited to correct coding]

[This message has been edited by Pat ONeill (edited 05-07-2001).]
_________________________
Best, Pat

Top
#464698 - 05/07/01 05:53 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
I am indifferent to Pat and his opinions, but does he tell it like it is up above...

Tell me, Pat did you go through high school suffering from that sort of thing?
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

Top
#464699 - 05/07/01 06:03 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Eric Reynolds Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/99
Posts: 266
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
SAMMY CATALINA WROTE:
>>>Just how do you know that Joe was watching the X-Files prior to his posting? Playing God again?

No, actually I was just using Kim and Gary's spy satellite that they use to keep tabs on their enemies and facilitate offensive fronts.

Okay, not really. You see, Sam, it was something of a JOKE (a failed one, apparently), because Mr. Zabel's post suggested, quite conspiratorally, that my posting of Pat's handsome mug was MASTERMINDED by Kim Thompson (despite Kim's public disapproval of same!). And, you see, the X-Files often deals with matters of consipracy and airs on Sunday nights; as such, it occured to me that the show might have helped Joe get "in the mood" for such wacky theatrics.

But, do I know for certain that he watches the X-Files? Of course not, you nimwit!

>>>>You are dismissed because of your tactics that prompted the discipline you allegedly received from veitch.

Nice use of the word "allegedly"! Who really knows for certain whether I was truly disciplined by Mr. Veitch? Maybe I went in and edited those posts myself, purporting to be him! You, sir, know how to sniff out a conspiracy even better than Joe!

>>>>Then you go and repeat it on several occasions as if it were some badge of honor. Get back to the Gutters where you belong.

Are you insinuating that I am some kind of drunken, homeless bum? I assure you that I have a roof over my head and am not an alcoholic.

>>>I still have yet to see Pats' response. I doubt he is even interested in making one. That could be an error on my part, but that is
my take on it. It sure does seem that many of his adversaries continue to take cheap shots at him, though. No surprise.

We are all very excited to have your take on this matter, Mr. Catalina. Thaanks for sharing.

By the way, it's funny that when the notorious image in question was printed in TCJ, Pat never bothered to complain then. I mean, this is the same guy who managed to take the time to write TCJ when the mag was actively covering Jack Kirby's efforts to get his original art returned from Marvel. In fact, not only did he write the most spirited and vigorous defense of Marvel's corporate position in withholding the art, but he wrote the ONLY such defense!

So, yes, I'm a bit taken aback by all of this controversy, but I'm glad that even someone like Pat has a Sam Catalina watching his back.
_________________________
Eric Reynolds
Fantagraphics Books

Top
#464700 - 05/07/01 06:20 PM Re: Hey Pat,
NatGertler Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 4618
Quote:
Nat Gertler, who has no love whatsoever for Gary Groth or the JOURNAL, is one of the main Pat-disputers.
And a primary Pat-corrector, a label I have earned over many years. When I have the opportunity to help prevent folks from being misinformed by Pat, I take it.

[quote]Pat gets argued with because his opinions are stupid[/quotes]No, Pat's opinions are ignorant... and there is no harm in that. I don't know whether Freddy Got Fingered is a great movie or a lousy one. I've not seen it. I do certainly have my suspicions, assumptions, and working opinions about it, and I'll stick with those rather than shell out $7 to make an informed opinion.

Where Pat acts stupid is that he not only announces his uninformed opinions, he stands by them vehemently, even in the face of actual contradictory information. He formulates his assumptions and puts them forth as fact. Many of his statements are easily, immediately disprovable; those that aren't are nonetheless questionable given the source. If Pat's goal is to lend to informed discussion, his technique is stupid because it lends to misinformation and distraction. If Pat's goal is to "win" a discussion, that's a situation where distortions and misinformation may be effective if they inspire belief; given how easily and quickly Pat's misinformation is shot down, I don't see them generating belief.

What also comes across as stupidity on Pat's part is his seeming inability to recognize his own failures in discussion and to adjust his manner. With one misinformed or illogical statement under fire, Pat will often try to reinforce it with additional misinformed or illogical statements. (Not always; he did, for example, admit that he was wrong about the work of the Hernandez Bros. However, it is frequent enough in my experience that it is the expectation rather than the exception.)

I do still hold out a hope (however small) that Pat can be encouraged to adjust his ways, to learn not to state in factual form things that are not facts, to recognize that an informed person's statement conflicting with his assumptions is a time perhaps to ask questions rather than to more shrilly announce his assumptions to the world. Someday, perhaps, Pat will find the path of intellectual honesty and accuracy. We shall see.

Top
#464701 - 05/07/01 09:46 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Maybe someday Eric will learn how to spell....You need to do that before you debate in Comicon....

Typical....
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

Top
#464702 - 05/07/01 10:01 PM Re: Hey Pat,
brent Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 11
JoeZ:
"Wrong on three counts. First, the assault on Pat does not consist merely of criticism. No one can be faulted for making legitimate criticism of Pat's views. But the assault also consists of insults, name-calling, and the posting of unflattering portraits of Pat in an attempt to ridicule him."

Assault? For asking Pat a question about his views? Good Grief.

"Second, Pat obviously does care about such attacks; he even requested that the portrait graphic be removed."

Attacks, Joe. That was an attack...not criticism. There's a difference. Learn it, live it.

"Thirdly, the chilling effect consists of the inhibition of dialog by the entire comics community. It's obviously a campaign to discourage criticism of the journal, and of alternative comics. As an alternative cartoonist myself, I want no part of such a campaign."

A campaign to discourage criticism of the Journal and of alternative comics? HA! Like criticism of anything would ever stop.

No, it's a campaign to find out why Pat harbors this antipathy towards alternative comics and continues to say the super-hero books have a better shot at mainstream success than anything alternative artists put out. That, and his saying that the majority of alternative books are about "miserable people with miserable lives" which he has stated, at least, twice. Obviously, Pat never looks through Previews.

Pat,
I see. So, I guess you are not an elitist because you don't find the mainstream any better than the alternative press. Correct?

Then...what's the difference between you saying 'Most,if not all alternaive books are about miserable people crap' and the Journalistas saying 'Most, if not all, mainstream books are super-hero crap'?

OH, the air of superiority that reeks from the Journalistas, right?

Top
#464703 - 05/08/01 03:03 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Eric Reynolds Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/99
Posts: 266
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
SAMMY!:
>>Maybe someday Eric will learn how to
>>spell....You need to do that before you
>>debate in Comicon.... Typical....

Owch, thet hurtz! I'ze gonna sit inna mudpuddel alls dey lowng nowz...
_________________________
Eric Reynolds
Fantagraphics Books

Top
#464704 - 05/08/01 08:12 AM Re: Hey Pat,
Pat ONeill Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Pat,
I see. So, I guess you are not an elitist because you don't find the mainstream any better than the alternative press. Correct?

Then...what's the difference between you saying 'Most,if not all alternaive books are about miserable people crap' and the Journalistas saying 'Most, if not all, mainstream books are super-hero crap'?

OH, the air of superiority that reeks from the Journalistas, right?


One who stands with the general public and says, "That which is popular is, by definition, no better or worse than that which is not" is not an elitist. He is not taking the position that his views, his tastes, his background is superior to anyone else's.

OTOH, one who says "Those who do not agree with my views, my tastes, or share in my background are morons, illiterates, and have the comparative esthetic sense of a well-trained ape" is an elitist. He has taken the position that he knows better than anyone else what is worthwhile in the world.
_________________________
Best, Pat

Top
#464705 - 05/08/01 08:13 AM Re: Hey Pat,
betty brant Offline
Member

Registered: 09/23/00
Posts: 1622
Loc: nerdonia
wheeeeeeeeeee!!!!! i've never posted to a pat o'neil thread before!

pat, please explain to me how the pamphlet called uncanny x-men, which sells about 100,000 copies a month, which most adults would not be caught dead reading, including most of the adults who saw the fucking movie, because they don't want other people to think they're 30-year-old virgins who live in their parents' basements, and which most kids won't read because they don't want to grow up to be 30-year-old virgins who live in their parents' basements, is part of "mainstream popular culture".

there. i've just popped my pat cherry.

Top
#464706 - 05/08/01 02:38 PM Re: Hey Pat,
Kim Thompson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by Pat ONeill:
He is not taking the position that his views, his tastes, his background is superior to anyone else's.


Pat, do you honestly in your heart of hearts think your views and your tastes (I'm not sure where the "background" thing comes from --some bizarre attempt at class warfare?-- so I'll ignore that) are not superior to mine, or Gary's, or Tom's?

This disingenuously equalitarian bullshit is particularly preposterous coming from a man who, bar none, has logged the highest proportion of negative-to-positive commentary on the field of comics on any message board. If there is a contemporary cartoonist whose work has been greeted by Pat with anything other than a variation of "bad" or "of no interest to me" I missed it.

Gary Groth, Tom Spurgeon, Eric Reynolds, and I could probably rattle off 50 contemporary comic-book cartoonists whose work we like a whole lot. Pat, so far as I can tell, would be hard pressed to come up with five. And we're the ones with the absurdly narrow tastes?

Top
Page 3 of 31 < 1 2 3 4 5 ... 30 31 >