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#467605 - 06/05/01 04:55 PM CREATORS RIGHTS
iusetobekb Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 282
Loc: hawaii
Ok,i figure that there are alot of people who talk a good game about this when it envolves you know,earth shattering characters that neil gaiman worked on and owns,But belive it or not other creators have been stolen from. jack kirby,Stan lee,gil kane,steve ditko,joe kubert,lein wein,marv wolfman.we will stop there but please feel free to add to the list.
anyway,i was hoping perhaps some who take such a strong stance on this issue would please write a short post to marvel comics editor and cheif Joe Quesada about the injustice that has been done to these and many other creators and demand that ownership or reasonable compensation see there way to the creators still living and the families of the deceased.
please dont attack one anothers post but keep it related to marvel characters.I feel Joe being the stand up guy he is,might honor the request,if enough of you write in.then when can email a copy to him.

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#467606 - 06/05/01 05:39 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
Kayo Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/01
Posts: 177
It's best to fight one battle at a time and gain strength and momentum from each victory. I'll tell you what, Kyle, if you put all your energy into helping Neil resecure his rights from TMP I'll be glad to support you when you actually start and spearhead a campaign to redress past injustices.

You might want to be very specific about what you feel was stolen from them, the specifics of how it was stolen, and what agreements were specifically violated. They're probably accessible with a bit of research.

If you don't have the specifics you'll probably be inundated with rude notes and posts from Marvel Zombies demanding to know these specifics and I doubt they'll accept any of this without verified details. Even then there'll probably be a number of extremely short-sighted posters who won't accept that "their" company could ever do anything wrong and that anyone advocating for the rights of others is stupid and should be verbally abused and punished.

So. Are you ready to join the battle already in progress and work towards shaming Todd into making amends for his unethical business practices?

-Kelley O'Hearn

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#467607 - 06/05/01 05:54 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
Glenn Barbis Jr Offline
Member

Registered: 01/09/99
Posts: 765
Loc: Nowhere, Pa.
One thing you need to remember is, that the men you propose to help, knew the deal going in. They knew it was work-for-hire, and nothing they created would acually be theirs.

I agree that they once those characters should the profit potential they had, the creators should have been given some sort of slice.

But regarding Neil & Todd, Todd went everywhere, stating he was for creators rights, he was for people owning what they create for other companies, that Image was formed on this principle, and a dozen other statements that lead one to believe that anything you create for Todd, you have a stake in.

Neil even says he had a hand-shake deal for his Spawn #9 characters. So with all Todd's stated on the subject, and about the sins of the past, one would assume he would give some sort of share of Angela & Cog to Gaiman.

The creators you mentioned were never under any of those impressions. They knew they worked for the big corporation. They knew that their paychecks covered all their work. And we all know now, that it was wrong.

But that's the way it was then. Marvel & DC weren't spouting "creators rights" while ripping off their ideas.

Also...I don't think Joe Quesada could do anything about that. He could offer suggestions, but he doesn't have the power to give characters away. He tried what he could to save Al Milgrom's job, but the higher ups had it in for Milgrom, and Joe couldn't do much about it. Same would go for this situation.

"This ain't art...it's business!!!"
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#467608 - 06/05/01 05:54 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
iusetobekb Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 282
Loc: hawaii
Yeah,that'll work.After spawn the movie your gonna try to shame him.good luck,I won't join a lost cause [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I think we have a better shot getting lee and ditko back spiderman.that's why i started this thread.[i'll make it simple,we'll just try to get spidey back.]
you know what, i'll join you,Todd give neil the 50 bucks you owe him so we can move the fuck on.I'm tired of coming off like a todd supporter.

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#467609 - 06/05/01 06:02 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
iusetobekb Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 282
Loc: hawaii
wait,i need actual proof they stole from these guys,shit.can't i just make some up and then swear by it?actually i'm to lazy,can some one else make up some facts for me,hunk,flimflam,pete charles...anyone.just involve todd some how and peole will back it up.

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#467610 - 06/05/01 06:15 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
Leif Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 54
Loc: wa
Hi, hope you dont mind a new guy hoping in here.
I think the material originally mentioned is whats called a "work for hire". Meaning they did the work and the corp gets to keep the rights. But copyright law did change in 19(89?) so it could be a completly different animal than what it is today.

And not to start a flaming war here, but is it possible that T McF is just trying to stir up controversy to increase sales? Is it possible that there is an agreement allready existing between all parties and they are waiting for the check? Maybe thats why there is so much silence concerning the issue? Just a thought.
Thanks for your time,
L

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#467611 - 06/05/01 06:21 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
iusetobekb Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 282
Loc: hawaii
hey new guy!
nah,they were going on about todd before he showed up.
i think it's funny people will make excuses for marvels ethical lapses but not Todd.His company also runs work for hire,despite what is said.

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#467612 - 06/05/01 06:42 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
Mark Evanier Offline
Member

Registered: 04/06/99
Posts: 382
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Barbis:
One thing you need to remember is, that the men you propose to help, knew the deal going in. They knew it was work-for-hire, and nothing they created would acually be theirs.


ME: Really? Show me one contract, one release form, one letter of agreement, one anything relating to a comic book employment situation with the words "work-for-hire" that was written before 1975.

I've spoken with most of the men mentioned at the outset of this thread. They didn't know what you say they knew.
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#467613 - 06/05/01 06:52 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
Leif Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 54
Loc: wa
Quote:
Originally posted by iusetobekb:
hey new guy!
nah,they were going on about todd before he showed up.
i think it's funny people will make excuses for marvels ethical lapses but not Todd.His company also runs work for hire,despite what is said.


Thanks for the greetings! My earlier post wasn't making up excuses for marvels ethical lapses, rather the way copyright is run now.
Dont get me started on Kirby's disrespect. we will be here all day. In my mind DC was far worse: changing golden age to completely different people for the silver age. But I digress......

<
I've spoken with most of the men mentioned at the outset of this thread. They didn't know what you say they knew.>>

I could be wrong here, and I dont know what direction to put you in to see if Im full of shit or not, but I believe that "back in the day" it was written into their contract to begin with. "all works created by ____ is considered to be a work for hire and is as such cosidered as property of_____" or something to that effect.
But as I said earlier, copyright changed dramatically in the mid to late 80's, so Im not sure how accurate Iam.



[This message has been edited by Leif (edited 06-05-2001).]

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#467614 - 06/05/01 06:55 PM Re: CREATORS RIGHTS
Glenn Barbis Jr Offline
Member

Registered: 01/09/99
Posts: 765
Loc: Nowhere, Pa.
I apologize to Mr. Evanier, who I have a great deal of respect for, and I know is a valid "historian" of these things, as it were.

I will concede that I may have "spoken" in haste there. I really didn't mean it to come off like it did. I know there are many pathways around this, and all are very unclear. I was basically trying to make a generalization in that, the times were different, and the companies involved didn't blatantly spout the rhetoric that McFarlane did to cause anyone thinking they would own the characters outright (although, I must say, maybe they did??? Another point I may have misinterprted).

Again, I apologize to Mark for it coming off the way it did.

I think what happened to the men mentioned, was very wrong, and a blight on the industry. I did not mean any slight towards them or their plight.

Please forgive me.

[This message has been edited by Glenn Barbis (edited 06-05-2001).]
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