Right on, Steve. A little Talvin Singh would go a long way.

"My personal morality and code of ethics is, of course, informed by the millieu of my environment: Western, Christian - at least in background if not by personal affiliation, and cultural."

So are you then saying that, while you denounce Christianity, you subscribe to the basic morals that are associated with it? Why? According to Christianity all of this springs from a God...not necessarily a reliable source for an athiest. This strikes me as a lazy way to go about defining one's morals by just letting your background and environment form your ideas of right and wrong. Did you just fall into your current beliefs?

I'm sure you believe that it is wrong to murder another person. But can you tell me why?

Since recorded history the concept of "murder" has been "wrong". Where do you think this idea of right and wrong came from? And if not from some sort of 'higher authority' then why should I subscribe to your beliefs or society's beliefs of right and wrong. If I decide tomorrow that murder is OK then how can you morally stop me? Because that's the way it's always been? So? Who says you're right? Does a 'majority' make it right? None of that is a logical reason for behaving according to our societies ideas "moral".

We are born with an innate sense of some kind of right and wrong. We are born with compassion and empathy. These are not 'learned traits'. And if they were, why can't we train animals to become empathetic and courteous and become vegetarians over time? It's something that can't be tought and doesn't need to be. Although society shapes these morals and bends them subtly, everyone on this earth has some sense of right and wrong and it doesn't come from the "fabric of society".

>>So are you then saying that, while you denounce Christianity, you subscribe to the basic morals that are associated with it? Why? According to Christianity all of this springs from a God...<<<

Show me where I denounced Christianity - or any religion - in any of my posts.

I would argue that the ethical and moral guidelines that filter down from Judeo-Christianity were always the work of humans. Humans claiming divine inspiration of course but just humans. But of course thats just what I believe.

The fact is that Judeo-Christian ethics can be traced back to Babylon and Sumeria, the code of Hamurabi, Hebrew tribal law... but ultimately your argument is that all laws, ethics and morality stem from God. That's what your faith tells you. My logic tells me law is the creation of man and as such is open to revision and re-assesment under new circumstances.

Moral and legal codes created for sheperds and nomads thousands of years ago do not neccesarily apply today - it would be surprising if they did.

And I'm not an atheist, I'm agnostic. I don't care enough about the question to believe passionately, dogmatically that there is no God any more than I do to believe there is.

Oh, and Matt? What happened to your 'honest curiousity'? Your response was agressive and sarcastic. Not really what one would expect from someone who's 'just trying to understand someone elses point of view.'

Sorry if my response came of as aggressive or sarcastic. That wasn't the intent. I was merely trying to make a point by asking you, seriously, why is it wrong for me to murder someone. Why is it wrong? It may come off as sounding as sarcastic, but really I want to hear a purely logical response to that question. I'm asking you to tell me logically why it is wrong to kill someone. And yes, I am still honestly curious about your beliefs. I don't agree with them but I would like you to explain them to me so I can try to understand. I have an open mind. I have particular beliefs going in, but if I can be proved wrong or made to see things differently, then I'm all for it. I'm not even trying to convince you of anything. I don't believe anything blindly or without seriously thinking about it and questioning those with different viewpoints helps me. So again, I'll ask you to explain why is it wrong to murder someone?

You didn't denounce Christianity, that was directed at another guy on the post (Cook) who pretty much said to fuck all religion.

I prefer Dhol Foundation, or Joi.

>>why is it wrong to murder someone?<<

Do you think the only reason it's wrong to commit murder is because your religion says not to? If so, if your religion was pro-murder would that make murder okay?

No, I'm sure you have many other reasons aside from 'God says so'. Like I do. I just do without the 'God says so' one.

There's all sorts of excellent, straight-forwardly logical reasons to think that murder is wrong. On every social, evolutionary, economic and emotional level it's simply counterproductive and damaging to individuals and humanity as a whole.

I just don't need a religion to tell me so to know it.

You obviously didn't expect a response, but I'll give one anyway.

I realize perfectly well that I'm not thinking rationally at this point. You should have seen me on Sept 11. I purposely haven't posted until now because at that time I wanted a "Godfather" type hit on Arafat, Hussein, Bin Laden, and a nuke or two at Iran just for good measure. And even then, I had the good sense not to PUBLICIZE such a desire.

In the ensuing four days, I have CALMED DOWN to the position that I posted here earlier, which basically said that as a result of the terrorist attack, I am completely biased in favor of Israel and against Islamic Fundamentalism on any issue, and intend to give it no further thought. That's how I feel today. Maybe not next week.

The invasion you refer to above took place when Israel was being shelled from Lebanon. Furthermore, Israel did not kill those civilians. What they've been accused of is standing by while someone else did that killing. And even to the extent that they were to blame (because they were the ones in control of the territory at the time), they have reaped the consequences in world opinion ever since. Except for the US and Britain, almost no one on the planet thinks Israel should survive.

Now the Islamic Fundamentalists (and I know that is not all muslims) have made the same mistake. They just cashed in all their good will points in the world, and I hope their cause is dead within Arafat's and Bin Laden's lifetime, so that they can die knowing how badly they f***ed it up.

As I said before, that's where I am TODAY. Next week, who knows? Ask me about reflection then.

- Larry H

Talvin Singh, Dhol Foundation, and Joi will all be harnessed to bring about world peace. Trust me THIS PLAN CANNOT FAIL. If nothing else, this will help counterbalance the fact that Islamic fundamentalists do not get laid nearly enough Get some of these guys to lose some of that backed up spunk and they'll be happy just to blow whistles and wave glow sticks.

Any bets on how long that is?