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#480580 - 12/17/01 07:19 PM [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Chris Knowles Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/99
Posts: 875
Loc: USA
I know I've gotten a lot of stick for Miller bashing here, and I think my reactions are more aimed at his uncritical admirers more than the work itself, but as someone who cares about Miller's work I can't be silent about his decline anymore, especially when it seems so obvious and yet so unnecessary to me.

The fact of the matter is that ,once upon a time, Frank Miller was my all-time favorite Comics creator and I would read his books over and over and over. But after his return from Hollywood, to me a pod-person Frank Miller took his place. All of a sudden his work, which was once so grounded in Realism, became surreal in all the wrong ways. The humane Catholicism that once informed his work was replaced by nihilism, misanthropy and sexual sadism. I kept waiting for the real Frank Miller to return and was hoping against hope he'd come back for DK2, but to me it's just Sin City in drag.

I may seem unduly harsh, and I'm sure Frank doesn't care, but I wouldn't spend so much time railing about this if I didn't care. I think Frank has lost his way and his Amen Corner isn't helping any. The fact of the matter is that DK2 has aroused very little real excitement in fan circles and the only thing people are talking about is the preorder numbers. My local retailer had pretty healthy stacks of his resolicitation on the racks on Sunday. I wonder how many people bought number one out of nostalgia will be back for number two. It's going to be interesting to watch.

I don't want Frank Miller to become the Michael Jackson of comics. He's too talented for that (jeez, so is Michael Jackson, come to think of it). But I think for the past several years Frank's work has been getting two reactions- polite recognition from most folks and drooling raves from his fanatics. And neither is doing him any good. DK2 is subpar work, that cannot be argued. And as his work declines, his near-messianic rhetoric escalates and that is very worrisome to me. I don't see much real critical analysis of his work and I think he needs it, just like any other artist.

Not having top-notch Frank Miller work out there has been an empty experience for me. It's kind of like how Rock fans felt after the Beatles broke up.

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#480581 - 12/17/01 07:45 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
me Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 16
Loc: hicksvilee, fl (former brookly...
you mean you don't like it because it's not preaching christian morals?

what about robin, i thought that the churchies hate little boys in green tights.

ha
but i guess you are right about that to some extent, it's batman. But then again, it's not just batman, it's the dark night batman. Not blue and yellow with little boy robin telling kids to brush their teech batman.
Dark Knight Batman...
http://ihbor2.homestead.com/comic.html
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#480582 - 12/17/01 08:00 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
NatGertler Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 4618
Quote:
I may seem unduly harsh, and I'm sure Frank doesn't care, but I wouldn't spend so much time railing about this if I didn't care.
"Oh no! Frank is doing work for other-people-who-aren't-me! This is something that I must care violently about!"
Quote:
I think Frank has lost his way
Lost his way toward what goal? Toward doing work tailored specifically to you? I doubt that was his goal. To putting forth his own vision? He seems to have that well in hand.
Quote:
DK2 is subpar work, that cannot be argued.
What an idiotic statement. Of course that can be argued, and it has been. It is, after all, a matter of taste.
Quote:
I don't see much real critical analysis of his work and I think he needs it, just like any other artist.
I don't see you offering it. I've seen you try to put down the work out of hand. I've seen you try to attack Miller's personal political views. These aren't critical analysis of the work. If you feel the need to do critical analysis, then go for it -- but what come across like someone who is very bitter because someone turned out an artwork which is not your cuppa tea.

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#480583 - 12/17/01 09:23 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Captain Testicles Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/01
Posts: 34
Loc: Pudendum, Mi
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knowles:


Not having top-notch Frank Miller work out there has been an empty experience for me. It's kind of like how Rock fans felt after the Beatles broke up.


BOO HOO HOO

why don't you face that IT"S OVER???!!?
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#480584 - 12/18/01 01:31 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
Man, you need to chill!

"I think my reactions are more aimed at his uncritical admirers more than the work itself"

Obviously, since you've not offered a scintilla of critical analysis yourself. And, why do you intentionally ignore all the "critical" admiration that's been proffered thus far? A critique does not necessitate a negative assessment.

"I kept waiting for the real Frank Miller to return"

That statement asserts that Frank Miller is not allowed to GROW as a person or creator and develop his life-philosophies further than whatever previous stage it is YOU prefer. If your assessment of Miller is true (and that's open to debate), then it's quite likely that his trips to Hollywood CONTRIBUTED to his jaded views--a not-uncommon effect.

"The fact of the matter is that DK2 has aroused very little real excitement in fan circles and the only thing people are talking about is the preorder numbers."

Since I see your posts all through the non-preorder-oriented DK2 threads, I can only believe you're talking out of your wazoo here.

"But I think for the past several years Frank's work has been getting two reactions- polite recognition from most folks and drooling raves from his fanatics."

Heh. YOU set the response-o-meter range from "it's good" to "it's freakin' awesome." Maybe you should take note that you have--by your own estimate--a VERY minority view on Miller's work. Making the next statement--

"DK2 is subpar work, that cannot be argued."

--a case of YOU arguing with YOURSELF. By your OWN words, it CAN be argued!

"I don't see much real critical analysis of his work and I think he needs it, just like any other artist."

Put up or shut up. Give us a "real" dissenting "critical analysis"--one that will explain to Miller himself what he's done wrong-- or quit whining about it.

"Not having top-notch Frank Miller work out there has been an empty experience for me."

THIS is where your real point is being made. YOU don't like DK2, and you can't stand it that somebody else DOES. You can't be happy unless we all hate it WITH you.

Sorry, but DK2 is a good comic. Considering all the RE-orders being made, most comic buyers agree.

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#480585 - 12/18/01 03:20 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Charles Reece Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Today snobbery, tomorrow nihilism!
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#480586 - 12/18/01 06:40 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
JohnEWIlliams Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1337
Loc: Virginia, USA
Boy, Nate sure can get crabby.

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#480587 - 12/18/01 07:53 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Chris Knowles Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/99
Posts: 875
Loc: USA
I'll you smartasses what- let's wait a year or two before we decide what the value of this work is. We can all reconvene and see what impact the book has had, what the sales trends were, what kind of reaction it has had among other creators and most importantly, see who has followed its lead. That will be the true test of this work. I'm done arguing about it. It's really not that important. If Miller's "personal vision" is to write like Mickey Spillane on a crack binge and people like that, more power to you all.

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#480588 - 12/18/01 08:58 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Ayo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/01
Posts: 1077
Loc: New York
I'm not a smartass;

but what are you TALKING about? since when is "realism" equivilent to "quality?"

if you don't see the brilliance of Sin City, then maybe you're close-minded.

almost none of the comics I read are strictly "realist," but that doesn't make them BAD...there's a difference between "representationalism" and "good art."

and for Christian morals, you should do your own soul-searching and not look to others to reinforce your views.
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#480589 - 12/18/01 09:05 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Bill Hicks Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 2890
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
let's wait a year or two before we decide what the value of this work is.


Isn't the value of this or any comic in the enjoyment it brings to those who are reading it now? Maybe you were expecting too much.

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#480590 - 12/18/01 10:46 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
JohnEWIlliams Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1337
Loc: Virginia, USA
Man, that Knowles is crabby.

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#480591 - 12/18/01 11:15 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
flaming white Offline
Member

Registered: 10/28/01
Posts: 73
uh, fan-boys, frank isn't writting for comic readers now...he's writting for his hollywood cronies, who are so coked-up that they think DK2 is tip-top and top-notch and just plain fuckin' swell stuff...maybe even great...but then they are coked up! wake up frank thinks you are a bunch of stoogie-woogies for buying the hacked out tipe that is DK2

------------------

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#480592 - 12/18/01 12:09 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
"I'll you smartasses what- let's wait a year or two before we decide what the value of this work is. We can all reconvene and see what impact the book has had, what the sales trends were, what kind of reaction it has had among other creators and most importantly, see who has followed its lead. That will be the true test of this work. I'm done arguing about it. It's really not that important. If Miller's "personal vision" is to write like Mickey Spillane on a crack binge and people like that, more power to you all."

By your standard, a comic must revolutionize the industry before it can be called "good."

Since the last book of that type appeared in the mid-80s (be it DK1, Watchmen, or Swamp Thing), you must REALLY be pissed off about EVERY comic over the past 15 years.

Your expectations for DK2 were ridiculously high.

It's a good book. Nothing more, nothing less.

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#480593 - 12/18/01 01:30 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Quote:
Originally posted by cannibal dee:
if you don't see the brilliance of Sin City, then maybe you're close-minded.


What's brilliant? It's the same old shtick repeated ad nauseaum. Some big gorilla in a trench coat suffers cartoonishly extreme abuse (Elmer Fudd come back! All is forgiven!) until rallying with ninja super-hookers to enact violent revenge. Lay a thick coating of wince enducing knock-off Mickey Spillane narrative and serve half-baked!

Repeat through each suceeding story line....

Ah, but he does draw rain at night quite nicely.
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#480594 - 12/18/01 01:50 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Charles Reece Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Man, that Hogan sure is crabby.
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#480595 - 12/18/01 02:01 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Zzzzzzzzzz.
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#480596 - 12/18/01 02:03 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Charles Reece Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Willya give me some of the blanket, ya big brute?
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#480597 - 12/18/01 02:18 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
[img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000062TL.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg[/img]

"This is MY side of the bed. I don't want you touchin' MY side of the bed."
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#480598 - 12/18/01 02:47 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
erem Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/01
Posts: 114
Loc: ny, ny
I just read DK2 and thought "This should be titled Dark JSA 2" Where the hell was batman? and why was there another planned attack on superman similar to that in the first dark knight story?

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#480599 - 12/18/01 05:06 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
I wish Frank Miller would get back together with Paul McCartney [img]/resources/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
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#480600 - 12/18/01 10:14 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
ComicReader Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 708
I'll tell ya somethin'. DK2 has its place in the marketplace.

It made a fine toilet paper substitute. Oddly enough, the art looked about the same with runny shit smeared all over it. Well, it actually kind of looked like it had a background or two...
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#480601 - 12/19/01 12:00 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
"I'll tell ya somethin'. DK2 has its place in the marketplace.

It made a fine toilet paper substitute."


Say what? Those pages are SLICK! Slick, heavy stock paper is NO substitute for Charmin!

You'd be better off with a corn cob...

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#480602 - 12/19/01 04:34 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Originally posted by ComicReader:
I'll tell ya somethin'. DK2 has its place in the marketplace.

It made a fine toilet paper substitute. Oddly enough, the art looked about the same with runny shit smeared all over it. Well, it actually kind of looked like it had a background or two...


You know, it's not unheard of to flush after you're done, instead of trying to read your toilet paper. Remind me never to shake hands with you.
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#480603 - 12/19/01 07:52 PM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
bastl Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/98
Posts: 442
Loc: Vienna, Austria, Europe
hey, miller changes as an artist and as story teller. i know how you feel about it, if something is radically different, itīs often hard to accpet itīs done by the same person. to some this feels like treason because itīs not what they consider really good work and the creator must surely know that too. often artists seek new challenges. and fm styleīs always changes, I think. Heīs not a very elegant artist but heīs mad and free and that gives him glory. miller is a punk rocker.

I didnīt care much about DK2 at first but i thought it was stupid from people to say the idea sucked and it would be so very bad before having even read the comic. dk1 is still the best batman comic ever and this return to the dark knight is compeltely different. give the man some credit. fm doesnīt try to appeal to anyone here, he draws the comic like he wants to draw it because it feels true to him and fun. I flipped through the first issue and i think the art looks pretty loose but determined still. itīs more dynamism, plus he stills pushes the comic page when heīs good. if itīs like that all the way round iīm pleased. some big surprises would be cool too. i donīt expect another dk1. i want something else.

just my view on things here. if you hate it, thatīs fine too. hope you also got some comics you enjoyed to read.

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#480604 - 12/20/01 08:43 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
ComicStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/01
Posts: 88
Loc: England
I'm not a fan of Millar, but i picked up DK returns TPB and DK2 just to see hype and see why people say DK is their top books.

I don't think DK returns is that special, the only really good bit was towards the ending. What Millar have here is a good idea having an aged hero return, and Millar could use this story on any superhero character. But storywise is nothing special. Maybe people saying it's their all time fav book, it's because it's batman, or because Millar wrote it.

Now DK2, i don't know why people are complaining about Millar's work here. I never read Sin City, so don't really know Millar's writing style. But this first issue seems quite interesting and going at a right pace. Also i like how the characters are much the same from the first DK book. What i don't like from this book is maybe Miller's change of artwork. In the first DK the drawings were more detailed, whilst DK2 seems a bit rushed, but i guess Millar wanted to change his style. I still think this a good book and would get the following issues.

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#480605 - 12/20/01 10:04 AM Re: [MINI-RANT] Clearing the Air on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
"I don't think DK returns is that special, the only really good bit was towards the ending. What Millar have here is a good idea having an aged hero return, and Millar could use this story on any superhero character. But storywise is nothing special. Maybe people saying it's their all time fav book, it's because it's batman, or because Millar wrote it."

15 years of subsequent derivative rip-offs will have that effect.

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