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#480778 - 12/21/01 03:07 PM Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
http://www.comicon.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000098.html

The current regime at Marvel does it with condescension, snideness, unprofessionalism and bullie-ish glee.

I used to read Stan Lee's "Bullpen Bulletins", letter page replies, and interviews and feel that Marvel was a place that liked you as a fan. It was one big, friendly, happy place that made you think you were in for a good time at the "House of Ideas" and you were a member of the family.

Even if the behind-the-scenes were a bit more mundane, and not so chummy, at least Marvel used to care enough about fans and retailers, and everyone else to put on the smile and make you feel welcomed.

The new regime... It's a gang of schoolyard bullies who laugh at you and mock you (anyone read the delightful, very adult response Bill Jemas shot off to Mark Alessi in "Wizard"?). They take a "You are with us or against us" stance and speak down, not to, fans, retailers, and other industry people. The jeer, sneer, and scoff.

The message is clear: "We are right, no matter what you say. And if you don't think so, you are an idiot. Now buy our books!!"

They issue responses to provoke. Hey, buds, you succeed at that! Sure, it gets attention. --- The same kind of attention junior gets for crapping his pants intentionally, just so people will make him the topic of discussion. That's pathetic, but it works!

Marvel, the old Marvel, the REAL Marvel, the REAL "House of Ideas" that didn't need to rip-off Vertigo, Chaos, and themselves, were about INCLUSION.

The new Marvel; It's all about EXCLUSION.

I don't feel they want me as a retailer OR a fan. I don't think they care about anyone. It's all about the money and getting attention to make that money, period.

Merry Christmas, Marvel.

------------------
Matthew Hawes
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Evansville, IN
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#480779 - 12/21/01 03:18 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Steve Hogan Offline
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Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
I thought Stan used to do it by ripping off Jack Kirby.
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#480780 - 12/21/01 03:23 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hogan:
I thought Stan used to do it by ripping off Jack Kirby.


ZZZZZZ... Wha--? Oh you weren't trying to be predictable?

I'm sorry, did Jack promote the comics? I was referring to that, y'know: The promotion and customer/retailer relations, not the creative side of things.

But don't let that stop you from the much-anticipated Stan-bash posts.

------------------
Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
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#480781 - 12/21/01 04:13 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
RANDY Offline
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Registered: 05/12/00
Posts: 2343
Loc: U.S.A.
I've suspected for a while that the current regime at Marvel had received all their training in PR, employer-employee relations and customer service from THE JIM SHOOTER SCHOOL OF ETIQUETTE. Shooter coming back to the fold confirms it.

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#480782 - 12/21/01 05:38 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Steve Hogan Offline
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Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Time to switch to decaf Matt, it was a fucking joke.

Please don't let me interfere with your tirade about how a corporation has stopped pretending to be your bestest buddy.
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#480783 - 12/21/01 08:06 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hogan:
Time to switch to decaf Matt, it was a fucking joke.

Please don't let me interfere with your tirade about how a corporation has stopped pretending to be your bestest buddy.


Ooooohhhh... It was a joke. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....HEH...AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA...*SNORTLE*...

whew! Good one. You should hit the circuit with that wit.



------------------
Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
_________________________
"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

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#480784 - 12/21/01 09:05 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Edwin Bravenech Jr Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 320
Steve Hogan is one of the wittiest men on these or any boards I've seen. [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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#480785 - 12/21/01 11:04 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
QCCBob Offline
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Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 1378
Loc: Cincinnati OH
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Hawes:
I don't feel they want me as a retailer OR a fan. I don't think they care about anyone. It's all about the money and getting attention to make that money, period.

Merry Christmas, Marvel.

[/B]

AMEN!! BTW, are you experiencing the same severe drop off on your X-books like we are in Cincinnati? What these idiots don't realize is while they create hype, people read the books, see the recycled plots, see the inconsistant art and shipping dates missed, and QUIT believing the hype and buying the books. I just dropped Uncanny by 35 copies, never thought anyone could do a book THAT bad and run off the X-Zombies!!!! At least Morrison can do an original plot like teasing with Jean and a Phoenix-effect, never seen that in a X-title before. LOL I only had to drop New X-men by 10 copies.

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#480786 - 12/21/01 11:11 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
JohnEWIlliams Offline
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Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1337
Loc: Virginia, USA
It also turns out those women in PLAYBOY only look like they want to sleep with you.

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#480787 - 12/22/01 12:09 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Eel O'Brian Offline
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Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 3080
Loc: North Kackalackee
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Hawes:
Ooooohhhh... It was a joke. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....HEH...AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA...*SNORTLE*...

whew! Good one. You should hit the circuit with that wit.



Steve Hogan is the Mick Foley of Comicon.
You need to grow a thicker skin, and recognize superb wit, parody, and satire when you see it. Come to the gutters sometime and experience his comedy stylings - they often make my day.

- Kevin

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#480788 - 12/22/01 12:48 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Speed Racer Offline
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Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 152
Yeah, and Stan's STILL doing it with charm, wit, and a sense of belonging - and look at how good his "Just Imagine Stan Lee Creating Cr*p" is doing in TODAY's marketplace. Not the marketplace of the long-gone days of the '60s and '70s, but the marketplace of today. So let's go ahead and bring back someone with the same personality as Stan, and hopefully he'll write in the same style as Stan, too...so that modern fans can be bored out of their wits.

It's a new world, and as history shows us, old voices don't always work in a new world. Bottom line is, Bill and Joe, for all their "bullying" and what have you, are selling books. If you want a false, corporate-created sense of charm, wit, and sense of belonging, go read - and sell - Archie Comics.

Man, I'm a jerk.
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#480789 - 12/22/01 11:26 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by QCCBob:
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Hawes:
I don't feel they want me as a retailer OR a fan. I don't think they care about anyone. It's all about the money and getting attention to make that money, period.

Merry Christmas, Marvel.


AMEN!! BTW, are you experiencing the same severe drop off on your X-books like we are in Cincinnati? What these idiots don't realize is while they create hype, people read the books, see the recycled plots, see the inconsistant art and shipping dates missed, and QUIT believing the hype and buying the books. I just dropped Uncanny by 35 copies, never thought anyone could do a book THAT bad and run off the X-Zombies!!!! At least Morrison can do an original plot like teasing with Jean and a Phoenix-effect, never seen that in a X-title before. LOL I only had to drop New X-men by 10 copies.

[/B]


I am having some readers drop the X-Men titles. Not a huge number, yet. But no one new is picking them up, either.

I agree with you about Marvel's so-called originality. After clearing away the old for the "new" on the X-Men titles, what do we get: In "Uncanny" a group of ugly mutants living undeground in tunnels and someone's trying to exterminate them. Nope, never seen that before! :P

"ORIGIN" is running late (It is a good story, though).

Marvel's PR tactic is the "Made You Look" variety. It's all about taunts, smoke and mirrors and being in your face. It gets attention, but it doesn't endear or earn loyalty.



------------------
Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
_________________________
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#480790 - 12/22/01 11:33 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Speed Racer:
Yeah, and Stan's STILL doing it with charm, wit, and a sense of belonging - and look at how good his "Just Imagine Stan Lee Creating Cr*p" is doing in TODAY's marketplace. Not the marketplace of the long-gone days of the '60s and '70s, but the marketplace of today. So let's go ahead and bring back someone with the same personality as Stan, and hopefully he'll write in the same style as Stan, too...so that modern fans can be bored out of their wits.

It's a new world, and as history shows us, old voices don't always work in a new world. Bottom line is, Bill and Joe, for all their "bullying" and what have you, are selling books. If you want a false, corporate-created sense of charm, wit, and sense of belonging, go read - and sell - Archie Comics.

Man, I'm a jerk.


And Stan Lee sold more with his PR style. --- Sold a LOT more. Explain that. That's what I am referring to, after all. Your point about "Just Imagine" is moot. We are not discussing storytelling. Someone handed you the wrong textbook, pal.

It's not about "old school" vs. "new school." It's about a superior public relation stragedy that helped made Marvel the best selling comic book comapny for decades versus the in-your-face and rude PR style that has Marvel struggling to stay on top without filing Chapter 11.

"DK2" beat all Marvel titles, too, BTW. DC isn't insulting their customers. How'd they do that???

------------------
Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
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#480791 - 12/22/01 11:44 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Steve Hogan Offline
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Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Quote:
Originally posted by Eel O'Brian:
Steve Hogan is the Mick Foley of Comicon.
You need to grow a thicker skin, and recognize superb wit, parody, and satire when you see it. Come to the gutters sometime and experience his comedy stylings - they often make my day.

- Kevin



Mick Foley?! Has someone been blacking out teeth in my press photos?

Thanks for the support Kevin, but I don't think that Matt would enjoy the Gutters as we don't tend to preface our names with "Smilin'" "Jolly" and the like.

Comic readers would be well served to focus on the quality of individual titles as opposed to looking to publishers as surrogate families.

Just for the record, McDonald's isn't run by a clown named Ronald.
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#480792 - 12/22/01 12:00 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hogan:
Mick Foley?! Has someone been blacking out teeth in my press photos?

Thanks for the support Kevin, but I don't think that Matt would enjoy the Gutters as we don't tend to preface our names with "Smilin'" "Jolly" and the like.



Oh look, Steve's back. I'm sorry, Steve, you are obviously one of those types that like to stir things up and gripe a bunch because you weren't loved enough as a child, huh? Kinda explains why you spend time in "The Gutters." If that gives you validation, go for it.

But, really, Steve, you've made your li'l points. Let me know if you are just going to troll around or if you have anything of substance to add to the thread. It's tedious and boring to turn these posts into sniping contests of one-upmanship. Don't continue your course of predictability. If you don't have anything else of value to add, scamper back to your "Gutters." Thanks, peaches.



------------------
Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
_________________________
"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

COMICS UNLIMITED
654-B E. Diamond Avenue
Evansville, Indiana 47711
(812) 423-6952

www.comicsunlimited.biz

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#480793 - 12/22/01 12:19 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Hawes:
Oh look, Steve's back. I'm sorry, Steve, you are obviously one of those types that like to stir things up and gripe a bunch because you weren't loved enough as a child, huh? Kinda explains why you spend time in "The Gutters." If that gives you validation, go for it.

LOL. At least I was loved enough that I didn't look to the Marvel Bullpen as surrogate parents or friends!

If stirring things up and griping is so bad, why exactly did you start this thread Matt?

But, really, Steve, you've made your li'l points. Let me know if you are just going to troll around or if you have anything of substance to add to the thread. It's tedious and boring to turn these posts into sniping contests of one-upmanship. Don't continue your course of predictability. If you don't have anything else of value to add, scamper back to your "Gutters." Thanks, peaches.


You're welcome "Dumpling". I guess Bill Jemas could learn from your sweetness and diplomacy...you being so cuddly and even tempered and all.

Maybe Mr. Jemas could stand to tone down the rhetoric a bit, but quite frankly Marvel seems to be making more of an effort to reach out to wider audience. Certainly it's practices are a lot less distasteful than during the hucksterism of the 90's.

I've had disagreements with Kim Thompson over on the TCJ board, but at the end of the day I still buy Fantagraphics titles on the strength of their quality. Maybe the end of the "Marvel Zombie" midset isn't such a bad thing.
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#480794 - 12/22/01 07:16 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hogan:
You're welcome "Dumpling". I guess Bill Jemas could learn from your sweetness and diplomacy...you being so cuddly and even tempered and all.

Maybe Mr. Jemas could stand to tone down the rhetoric a bit, but quite frankly Marvel seems to be making more of an effort to reach out to wider audience. Certainly it's practices are a lot less distasteful than during the hucksterism of the 90's.

I've had disagreements with Kim Thompson over on the TCJ board, but at the end of the day I still buy Fantagraphics titles on the strength of their quality. Maybe the end of the "Marvel Zombie" midset isn't such a bad thing.


Hi, Steve.

Thanks, seriously, for responding in a civil manner. I apolgise for my snide remarks, but your first post was used as an oportunity to deride Stan Lee for something that had noting to do with what I was discussing and came off combative, to me.

Creatively, Marvel is branching out. I give kudos to Marvel (Joe Quesada, in particular) for that. But the fashion in which Marvel and Bill Jemas, as its' voice, handle the distribution, printing, public relation and promotion of its' product leaves much to be desired.

I asked this on another board, but can anyone see Walmart, a much, much, more successful business, treating its' business associates as Marvel does retailers that do not agree with their every whim? Would Walmart insult its' competitors so bluntly and childishly in its' press releases and ads? No, because that attitude may garner attention, but it's tacky and unprofessional and causes more ill will and resentment. The fact that I am not alone in this is proof that Marvel is doing something wrong. You have only to read any trade paper of the industry to see the ill will Bill Jemas has attracted. Can anyone see a successful company thrive for long on such unprofessionalism?

As I've already stated, Bill Jemas's approach has yet to increase sales for Marvel to the point of sales when Stan Lee took a more tactful approach.

Why does McDonalds sell BILLIONS of hamburgers? Because of that Ronald McDonald fella you wrote about. That friendly image. It sells. It sells a lot.



------------------
Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
_________________________
"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

COMICS UNLIMITED
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#480795 - 12/22/01 09:25 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Lew Stringer Offline
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Registered: 08/14/01
Posts: 348
Good topic, Matt. I guess Marvel are trying to reflect the times; badass resentful kids full of cynicism. It is a shame. Sixties Marvel was all about rising above adversity and being a true hero. Current Marvel seems to be streetlevel kick ass.

It's optimism replaced by pessimism, but that's the way society has gone, sadly.


Interesting point; compare the literacy and sophistication of many letters in sixties/seventies Marvels to todays dumbass missives.

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#480796 - 12/22/01 10:09 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Edwin Bravenech Jr Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 320
I'm offended that you would tell my buddy Steve (I consider him a gutter buddy and a man of incredible wit, I don't know him personally) to scamper, comparing him to a rat.

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#480797 - 12/22/01 10:20 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Spankme Imavirgin Offline
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Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Ecstasy, Vermont
I love Steve too. He taught me how to read and used to buy me clothes when I was cold.

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#480798 - 12/22/01 11:13 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Alias Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/99
Posts: 1115
Loc: Las Vegas Nevada USA
This discussion makes me want to drink some booze. Heavily.

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#480799 - 12/22/01 11:28 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
horst Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 26
You made the thread go screwy by posting a very, very long word with no spaces in it. if you want the thread to go back to normal, edit your posts!

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#480800 - 12/22/01 11:44 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Spankme Imavirgin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Ecstasy, Vermont
I didn't know Stan Lee still wrote comics?

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#480801 - 12/23/01 01:11 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Agrasshopperwalksintoabar Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 2795
Loc: Milky Way
PHEW! I thought I was like the only one in the Milky Way that doesn't like either of the current X-Men comics.

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#480802 - 12/23/01 11:35 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Speed Racer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Hawes:
And Stan Lee sold more with his PR style. --- Sold a LOT more. Explain that. That's what I am referring to, after all. Your point about "Just Imagine" is moot. We are not discussing storytelling. Someone handed you the wrong textbook, pal.



Yes, Stan sold a lot more books in his day than Joe and Bill have in theirs, but you're not just comparing apples and oranges, but you're comparing them at different stages in the growth cycle. For one, are we talking about how many books sold in his first year of being in charge? To do otherwise would be unfair to Joe and Bill. Secondly, are we just talking about flat number of books, are we taking into account the vastly different-sized marketplaces that Stan and Joe/Bill were dealt? Personally, I don't have time to run all the high-tech statistics that would be required to do a fair comparison of Stan's first year compared to Joe and Bill's, but I'd be interested in seeing the results.

It's not about "old school" vs. "new school." It's about a superior public relation stragedy that helped made Marvel the best selling comic book comapny for decades versus the in-your-face and rude PR style that has Marvel struggling to stay on top without filing Chapter 11.[/QUOTE]

Well, in their first year, Joe and Bill's style has made Marvel the best selling comic book company. For one year, true, but until they've had a full decade to either rise or fall, we won't know if they can go the distance or not. Personally, I think they will. We don't live in the same kind of world that Stan and the Merry Marvel Marching Society enjoyed back in the '60s to '70s. Our society, like it or not, has become faster, meaner, and louder. The fact that popular entertainment has to become that to be successful isn't the fault of pop. ent., it's society's for demanding it.

As far as the Chapter 11 stuff goes, every new Marvel financial report over the past year shows the company getting a firmer and firmer grip on itself, with the publishing arm repeatedly showing the most profit and the highest gains.

"DK2" beat all Marvel titles, too, BTW. DC isn't insulting their customers. How'd they do that???[/QUOTE]

DK2 beat all Marvel titles for one month, (and it didn't beat Origin by much), but most of the other top 20 books were Marvels. And DC did it by getting the creator of one of the best-selling comics ever to do a sequel, and then advertising it heavily through Time-Warner-owned mainstream publications. Which doesn't detract from the book in any way - it's a damn fine read. (Please Note: Cold corporate civility is not charm, wit, and a sense of belonging, either.)

[This message has been edited by Speed Racer (edited 12-23-2001).]
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#480803 - 12/23/01 11:42 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Speed Racer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally posted by Lew Stringer:
Interesting point; compare the literacy and sophistication of many letters in sixties/seventies Marvels to todays dumbass missives.


Ahh, and there's the rub. Compare the literacy and sophistication of ANY letters, articles, etc. in '60s/'70s publications of any sort to "today's dumbass missives," and you'll be astounded at how far literacy levels have dropped in just 30 years. Of course, that couldn't have anything to do with the fact that funding for education has continued to deteriorate every single year since then? (Sure, they raise the number of dollars every now and then, but never enough to keep up with education's "cost of living.") It's not just that subsequent generations of comic fandom got "dumber," it's been happening to our entire country.

How much of a correlation do you think there is between that and the fact that the arguably best-educated generation we every produced, the Baby Boomers, also turned out to be the hardest to control?
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#480804 - 12/23/01 11:49 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Spankme Imavirgin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Ecstasy, Vermont
go speed race, go speed race, goooo [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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#480805 - 12/23/01 01:19 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by horst:
You made the thread go screwy by posting a very, very long word with no spaces in it. if you want the thread to go back to normal, edit your posts!


I'd like that, too, Horst, but I can't. I tried.

Rick, if you want, I won't mind if you remove that particular post (the "Hahaha... post), and the quote of it in another post) to set things right. That post was not really important to the overall thread and I get a notice that says I am not allowed to edit it. Thanks!



------------------
Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
_________________________
"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

COMICS UNLIMITED
654-B E. Diamond Avenue
Evansville, Indiana 47711
(812) 423-6952

www.comicsunlimited.biz

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#480806 - 12/23/01 08:20 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Siege of Quebec Offline
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Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 529
Loc: Quebec,Qc, Canada
I agree with you Matt. As much as i like the new creative energy created by the coming of Joe Quasada at Marvel, i`m tired of this "bitchery". When he started at Editor-in-chef, Joe wanted to bury the hatchet with DC, a shacky relation Marvel always had with their competitors. But with what Joe and Bill have done recently, it made things worst than it was!!!

I think Joe and Bill Jemas should set-up a meeting with Mark Allesi and Paul Levitz and make peace.

All my comics are coming from Marvel, but as time goes by, i`m becoming more and more displeased with them. Whatever it`s coming from their "pissing contest" with DC or their "carnival-esque" ways to sell comic-books.

Marvel, what about cleaning-up your act?
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#480807 - 12/24/01 06:37 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
otto'sfoodsensingaparatus Offline
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Registered: 10/09/01
Posts: 103
Loc: yes
Matt, please edit your laughter. It has made this thread very hard to read.

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#480808 - 12/25/01 08:41 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
THE_WATCHER Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/01
Posts: 506
Iíve given up ranting about Marvel endlessly and being infuriated by their pronouncements. To me, Marvel is the whiny child having a tantrum in the corner wanting attention.

As Iíve stated elsewhere, while Joe Qís remarks for the most part have seemed intelligent and measured, I find Super BJís behavior and personal style distasteful. If anything it only serves to turn me off towards their product.

Besides, it's a matter of dollars. I vote with my wallet. There is very little coming out from Marvel I find myself wanting to read or spend money on. I heard all the lip service about the continuity ďelephant in the roomĒ which was bogging down Marvelís ability to tell a story and gain audience but, if anything, I find the situation exacerbated by the current editorial regime.

Excuse me if I choose to forego subjecting myself to the latest Ulitmate/Max/X-title tripe. Books are way too expensive for me to find it in my heart to support someoneís ill fated attempt at clear storytelling.

Mind you, there are exceptions to every rule and a few of the books I purchase every month are Marvel books. FF and Spider Man have regained some of the quality which was notably absent over the lasts several years. I just donít subscribe to the ultra-cool, hip and cutting edge portrayal Marvel management would like to foist on its readership.

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#480809 - 12/25/01 09:53 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Samuel Catalino Offline
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Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
If you can't handle a bunch of ribbing, then go home back to your playpen.

In his time Stan Lee labeled the competitors as Brand Echh and threw his share of jabs, and I find no difference here, other than names are mentioned.

I hear that J & Q are coming down to Megacon and debate with Mark A....Should be interesting..

I doubt if such a debate comes to pass, but should it happen, I suspect it will have all the substance of a McFarlane vs. David debate....in that it won't be taken seriously.
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#480810 - 12/26/01 01:05 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by otto'sfoodsensingaparatus:
Matt, please edit your laughter. It has made this thread very hard to read.


I'd like to. I've tried to edit the post, but the board won't let me. If I had known the result of typing with no spaces (I figured it would wrap around normally), I wouldn't have done it that way. Sorry.
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#480811 - 12/26/01 01:21 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
If you can't handle a bunch of ribbing, then go home back to your playpen.

In his time Stan Lee labeled the competitors as Brand Echh and threw his share of jabs, and I find no difference here, other than names are mentioned.

I hear that J & Q are coming down to Megacon and debate with Mark A....Should be interesting..

I doubt if such a debate comes to pass, but should it happen, I suspect it will have all the substance of a McFarlane vs. David debate....in that it won't be taken seriously.


All Stan Lee did was tease DC with tongue planted in cheek. He didn't refer to his fans as being dateless and living in their parent's basement getting off on "date books." And he didn't insult the retailers that are buying his product.
But, listen, I hear the lot of you that think this is just a case of "new" vs. "old." If that's all you really think this is, I won't be able to convince you otherwise. Silly me, I think good business -- being professional and successful -- relies on treating your business associates (retailers, distributors, etc.) and your regular customers (readers) like they are important or, at the least, not annoying or beneath you. Attacking CrossGen or DC is unprofessional in the manner that Marvel does it, but that's business. Insulting business associates and customers is not --- or, at least, not good business.
But, hey, what does centuries of good business practices compare to Bill J's "in-your-face" snottiness? He's made Marvel sell well for eBay patrons. The other businesses have strived for decades to centuries on treating customers and business associates respectfully (McDonalds, Coke, Sears, etc.).

What do those multi-billion dollar industries know, huh? Nothing compared to the brash, new, hip style of that corporate ladder climber, Bill Jemas.

So, if that's your idea of "new," welcome to it! Don't fuss when you are treated as a nobody whose opinions don't matter, though. The new Marvel, under BJ, cares only about your money, period. And they're flaunting it in your face.


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Matthew Hawes
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#480812 - 12/26/01 09:15 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Speed Racer Offline
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Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 152
Bitter, bitter, bitter...

Besides, is a place like McDonald's really treating anyone with courtesy, given the quality of food they offer?
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#480813 - 12/27/01 04:48 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
Quote:
Originally posted by Speed Racer:
Besides, is a place like McDonald's really treating anyone with courtesy, given the quality of food they offer?


I've often said that about Marvel...

Matt: Sorry, my initial post was just meant to take down the idea of getting too nostlagiac about the old Marvel regime. From what I understand Stan (Who I'll admit comes off quite cuddly on TV.) could be quite vicious when he was so inclined.

It does sound like Jemas could stand to tone it down (I really haven't followed him that closely.) though I agree with Lew that this is likely an attempt to project a cool alpha male image with the young males. I don't agree that it's a case of kids getting dumber (Stats on the current generation say otherwise.) but rather that in the quest for the easy buck, most mainstream comics dumbed down so far that the smart kids avoid them now.

(Response delayed due to the genial yet totally ineffectual service from my internet provider. Dicks.)
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#480814 - 12/27/01 07:54 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
macclint Offline
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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 731
Loc: Twin Peaks, Washington
Ummm....

Call me wacky, but I just don't buy Marvel anymore.

Not for several years actually.



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The Wandering Ones
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#480815 - 12/28/01 12:22 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Siege of Quebec Offline
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Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 529
Loc: Quebec,Qc, Canada
Actualy, you should try one.
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#480816 - 12/28/01 02:44 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Raven Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/99
Posts: 238
Loc: Ontario, Canada
>>The current regime at Marvel does it with condescension, snideness, unprofessionalism and bullie-ish glee.<<

Yeah? Well Mr. Smart Guy, find me a President and Editor in Chief of another company, any company, that would give half a shit and be as easily accessible.

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#480817 - 12/28/01 02:46 AM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Raven Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/99
Posts: 238
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Oh wait, you are on of those low IQ retailers Bill J. was talking about.

If you don't like Marvel, go open a gas station, I am sure your suppliers there will give an even bigger shit about your complaints.

Oh and before you quote such paragons of business virtue as McDonalds, go do a little research, Coke engages in back door deals with educational facilities promoting soft drinks to kids, even though its unhealthy for growing children to drink more soda than water, which they are doing.

Or McDonalds? Marvel isn't sending gangbusters into your shop threatening you because you talk about unionizing. Although maybe they should, a few of you retailers really need a good ass whipping, it'll get you out of the store and back into the real world.

>>What do those multi-billion dollar industries know, huh? <<

They know how to fuck you so bad you don't even know it's happening, that's what they know, but instead of opening your eyes you're here bitching because Marvel is trying to have a good time.



[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 12-28-2001).]

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#480818 - 12/29/01 05:16 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Lew Stringer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/01
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally posted by Speed Racer:
Ahh, and there's the rub. Compare the literacy and sophistication of ANY letters, articles, etc. in '60s/'70s publications of any sort to "today's dumbass missives," and you'll be astounded at how far literacy levels have dropped in just 30 years. Of course, that couldn't have anything to do with the fact that funding for education has continued to deteriorate every single year since then? (Sure, they raise the number of dollars every now and then, but never enough to keep up with education's "cost of living.") It's not just that subsequent generations of comic fandom got "dumber," it's been happening to our entire country.

How much of a correlation do you think there is between that and the fact that the arguably best-educated generation we every produced, the Baby Boomers, also turned out to be the hardest to control?



Very good point. Bleedin' kids today! Grumble....gripe...

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#480819 - 12/29/01 07:05 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
MCP Offline
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Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 878
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
I'd just like to point out that the title of this thread could be taken in an extremely unintended manner. Continue.

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#480820 - 12/30/01 03:19 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by MCP:
I'd just like to point out that the title of this thread could be taken in an extremely unintended manner. Continue.



Yeah, but it did what I intended it to do.

It made you look.

[img]/resources/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

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Matthew Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
Evansville, IN
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"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

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#480821 - 12/30/01 06:38 PM Re: Stan Used To Do It With Charm, Wit, and a Sense of Belonging.
metron Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/01
Posts: 937
Marvel in the old days had an advantage over the Marvel of today in that there was newsstand distribution. I have no way of knowing how many outlets there were during the '60s, but I bet there were many more places to buy comics then than there are now, another reason that comics sold more. Of course, comics probably sold a lot more, but Marvel, DC, and the other comics companies were getting ripped off by racketeering national and local distributors, one reason why sales figures from that time period are not entirely trustworthy. As for Stan, he would rib the competition, but it was all in fun. With Bill Jemas, it may be all in fun, but it is hard to know for sure.
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