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#481602 - 12/12/01 04:44 AM Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
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Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
First..DK2 is not as good as DK1...It could not be. It has too much to look up to.

Some folks love Miller's style, and some don't. That is the way it is.

Some folks will buy any Miller Batman book, and some will not. That is the way it is.

To call Millers' work art/genius or garbage is a subjective exercise.
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#481603 - 12/12/01 09:28 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Mark Allen Offline
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Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Possibly the most intelligent post on the subject of DK2 so far. Thanks, Catalino.
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#481604 - 12/12/01 09:47 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
"------------------------------------------------------------------------
First..DK2 is not as good as DK1...It could not be. It has too much to look up to.

Some folks love Miller's style, and some don't. That is the way it is.

Some folks will buy any Miller Batman book, and some will not. That is the way it is.

To call Millers' work art/genius or garbage is a subjective exercise."

So....what's your point?

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#481605 - 12/12/01 09:51 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
"------------------------------------------------------------------------
First..DK2 is not as good as DK1...It could not be. It has too much to look up to.

Some folks love Miller's style, and some don't. That is the way it is.

Some folks will buy any Miller Batman book, and some will not. That is the way it is.

To call Millers' work art/genius or garbage is a subjective exercise."

So....what's your point?

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#481606 - 12/12/01 07:19 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
In an earlier post in another thread, you state you have refused to buy the book up front.

So one would wonder how you could make any opinion pro or con, without having first read it.

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#481607 - 12/12/01 10:53 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
steel: A Long Departed Hero Online   content
Member

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 4328
Loc: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area)...
DK2 is a fun book and exactly what I love about comics, a fantastic world with interesting characters embroiled in a never ending struggle. Inspires me to write. Couldn't anyone tell how much fun Miller was having with it? That is why it was worth doing. It's a good read. That's all you can ask for from a comic.

[This message has been edited by steel (edited 12-12-2001).]
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#481608 - 12/13/01 01:49 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Anonymous
Unregistered


TBL is...was there anything that daring, that inventive, that orginal about DK2? ..no, not really. There WAS about DK1. It was a watershed, a milestone. Content wise, genre wise, and within that context even form wise. I am preaching to the choir. DK2 was within those boundries that Miller (and other pioneers) set before, and all were left with is...great entertainment. And that is not bad. I certainly think the level of literary/artistic quality is higher than 99% of all other superhero crap, but it's still well within the confines of the current definition of superhero genre work. It is, at best, (and this is not bad) what I refer to as "good crap".

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#481609 - 12/13/01 04:13 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"In an earlier post in another thread, you state you have refused to buy the book up front.
So one would wonder how you could make any opinion pro or con, without having first read it."

Let me put it this way....I don't need to take poison to know it will kill me....

In the same vein, I don't need to read every page of this work to know that it does not appeal to me, and for me to assign the opinion I have about this work.

The opinions I stated above are quite objective and cover both sides. Then again, it does not surprise me that you could not comprehend such a concept. As one poster noted, I stated the obvious.
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"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481610 - 12/13/01 05:46 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
Oh, so you didn't read it.

Fair enough.

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#481611 - 12/13/01 01:17 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
James Kochalka Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 359
Loc: Burlington, VT USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
As one poster noted, I stated the obvious.


I don't think saying that DK2 isn't as good as DK1 is something that you can honestly say without reading the book.

As far as the art goes... it's the most exciting looking superhero book in years. In fact, the visual style is much more radical than DK1, and the writing style is more radical as well. The art screams! It's like beefed up highschool art mixed with adrenaline pumping video games.
And it's written like sticking a story into a paper shredder. I think it's quite an acheivement.
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#481612 - 12/13/01 01:24 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
The OC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 1985
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
The opinions I stated above are quite objective and cover both sides.


Opinions are not objective; they can't be.



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"That fellow has set himself up as a critic of everything anyone else says."
-- Comicon.com member KarenW about popular Otto Chelman, 01 December 2001
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#481613 - 12/13/01 02:08 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
MarcDeering Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/99
Posts: 719
Loc: Newport News, VA.
Quote:
Originally posted by Otto Chelman:
Opinions are not objective; they can't be.



What everyone, including Sam, needs to realize is this;
Opinions are like Assholes. Everyone's got one.

And Sam's opinion is unfounded, until he reads it. Simple as that.



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#481614 - 12/13/01 10:23 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
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Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
All of you rascals who insist I must read every panel of DK2 to have a judgement on it.

I don't need to shoot myself with a gun to know it will hurt.

I don't need to play in traffic to know I will get hit by a moving vehicle.

I dont need to jump in with a pool of sharks to know I may get bitten.

I don't need to jump in front of a water moccasin to know he/she is going to come after with me with fangs bared...

Get the picture???
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"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481615 - 12/13/01 10:56 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
James Kochalka Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 359
Loc: Burlington, VT USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
All of you rascals who insist I must read every panel of DK2 to have a judgement on it.

I don't need to shoot myself with a gun to know it will hurt.

I don't need to play in traffic to know I will get hit by a moving vehicle.

I dont need to jump in with a pool of sharks to know I may get bitten.

I don't need to jump in front of a water moccasin to know he/she is going to come after with me with fangs bared...

Get the picture???



Yes, that's true. But you do need to read it in order to be able to say if it's worse than DK1 or not. Which you said without reading it.
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#481616 - 12/14/01 04:49 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
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Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
This is what I said:

"First..DK2 is not as good as DK1...It could not be. It has too much to look up to."

I base this on many facts. DK1 was groundbreaking in many factors. Too much is expected, and logically when that is the case, there is potential for disappointment. That is human nature.

Has DK2 outsell DK1? No, not even close.

Has DK2 become a new barometer for a new medium? No, remember that the DK1 was one of the first squarebacks that had immense success, helping to revolutionize the industry.

What new ground has DK2 broken? Other than bringing back a number of old dc heroes, do you honestly see any new ground breaking technique or storyline? I don't.

For the record, I liked the fact that Batman was drawn the way he was as it seemed to be realistic to his age. Now, he is slim and trim again. Not that it is not impossible, but Batman looked much more believable in DK1 for his age than in DK1. Of course that is my opinion.
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"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481617 - 12/14/01 05:21 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
Sam, you don't have to buy the silly book, just go read the store's copy, and then come give your honest, informed opinion.

Try it, you might like what happens in the ensuing discussion.

Like, I'm with James. The book ROCKS. Pretty bright shiny jangly loud. I could care less if it changes the industry or has artistic merit. It was fun! Yes it rehashed some old things (Joket, Luthor) but look Catgirl is really fun, and Varley's colors take getting used to the same way ALLRED'S X-FORCE is now impacting that title, and that took MONTHS bubbaleh [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Goodness, if your gonna pay 8 bucks for something, you should at least have a good time [img]/resources/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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#481618 - 12/14/01 07:54 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
krackkomik Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 23
Loc: Austin, TX. USA
I have posted in response to you before and this will be the last time I do so in anything you have to say.

In your fist post on another related forum subject you stated that you skimmed thru, deemed it unfit for you and said no one should waste thier money. Fine, you said your peace, but you post and post and post and offer nothing new to the discusion which you obviously can't because you haven't even taken the time to read it. You don't want to buy it cool, stop posting your same old opinion.

Then, you have the gall to post a new thread declaring the last word when no one cares about your uninformed opinion. Presumptions are all your facts are.

I don't know you personally and am only making a point. But Sheeesh.

Anyone posting thier opinion about a subject, please read the damn thing!



[This message has been edited by krackkomik (edited 12-14-2001).]
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#481619 - 12/14/01 09:31 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
James Kochalka Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 359
Loc: Burlington, VT USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:

What new ground has DK2 broken? Other than bringing back a number of old dc heroes, do you honestly see any new ground breaking technique or storyline? I don't.


Yes. But I can understand that you wouldn't notice any groundbreaking storytelling techniques if you haven't read it.

I posted this on another site:

"As far as the art goes... it's the most exciting looking superhero book in years. In fact, the visual style is much more radical than DK1, and the writing style is more radical as well. The art screams! It's like beefed up highschool art mixed with adrenaline pumping video games.
And it's written like sticking a story into a paper shredder. I think it's quite an acheivement."

This book is nothing like DK1. DK1 is grim & gritty, and slow but tense. DK2 is very FAST, and it's tension comes not through slow and deliberate pacing, but through two hundred beats per minute techno action. This is the first comic book I've seen that perfectly translates the current state of youth culture. It's PUMPED UP in a way that no other comic has been. And it's not just pumped up, but pumped up with a style and finesse that others have never been able to match.

It's like listening to techno in one ear, while talking on your cell phone in another, while skateboarding through traffic, and you're talking about video games, then you get another call and put the first on call-waiting. In short, this book has the style that kids THINK they have.

So, yes, it is a groundbreaking story.
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#481620 - 12/14/01 10:53 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
snoid Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/99
Posts: 2205
The bottom line for me is, I wish I could get a refund. That's not to say that anyone who liked it is a jerk, you liked it fine by me. I just thought it was poop.
Terry

[This message has been edited by snoid (edited 12-14-2001).]
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#481621 - 12/14/01 10:53 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
Huh?

Why does Frank Miller have to be "innovative" for his stories to be good?

Nobody ELSE in the industry is held to such a standard.

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#481622 - 12/14/01 11:24 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Chris Knowles Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/99
Posts: 875
Loc: USA
The real bottom line on DKSA is how little reaction it has spawned here or on other sites and groups. I still haven't been able to find a review on it on any of the major Comics sites. No one seems to really care that much about it. Those who like it like it okay, but aren't passionate about it and those who dislike don't really seem to be animated about it one way or the other.

In other words, just another prestige format Batman series, with some flukish sales stats related to its pedigree and to AOLTW shilling. Ho hum.

PS I am amused by Kolchalka's comments, considering he's on record saying how much craftsmanships sucks and should be abolished. No wonder he likes DKSA.

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#481623 - 12/14/01 11:56 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
dylan_dup1 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 2071
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
"In an earlier post in another thread, you state you have refused to buy the book up front.
So one would wonder how you could make any opinion pro or con, without having first read it."

Let me put it this way....I don't need to take poison to know it will kill me....

In the same vein, I don't need to read every page of this work to know that it does not appeal to me, and for me to assign the opinion I have about this work.

The opinions I stated above are quite objective and cover both sides. Then again, it does not surprise me that you could not comprehend such a concept. As one poster noted, I stated the obvious.



You can't say one work is better without reading it and you're right it is obvious to say an opinion is subjective but you said more than that, attempting to give some objectivity to your opinion that DK2 could never be better than DK1. Under that opinion Godfather 2 couldn't have been better than Godfather 1.

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#481624 - 12/14/01 01:56 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
victorinox Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/00
Posts: 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knowles:
I still haven't been able to find a review on it on any of the major Comics sites.


You haven't been looking hard enough, or for that matter, you don't seem to have looked at all. Someone will be by to trot out the list of URLs soon, I'm sure.

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#481625 - 12/14/01 03:34 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
Let me put it this way....I don't need to take poison to know it will kill me...


But are you capable of determining something is poison with just a glancing look?
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#481626 - 12/14/01 06:23 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"But are you capable of determining something is poison with just a glancing look?"

Irrelevant. You should have asked how do you know that particular poison can kill you? You would have had a stronger arguement.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481627 - 12/14/01 06:27 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"Why does Frank Miller have to be "innovative" for his stories to be good?"

I only pointed out that it doesn't seem that Miller could top DK1.

DK2 is a decent story. I still have not read every panel and have no reason to.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481628 - 12/14/01 06:30 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"You can't say one work is better without reading it and you're right it is obvious to say an opinion is subjective but you said more than that, attempting to give some objectivity to your opinion that DK2 could never be better than DK1. Under that opinion Godfather 2 couldn't have been better than Godfather 1."

Actually, although many people liked Godfather 2 better than 1 (the only sequel to garner an Oscar that I know of), I will stick with Godfather 1.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481629 - 12/15/01 08:55 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
victorinox Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/00
Posts: 206

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#481630 - 12/15/01 11:00 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
catalino, you're just making a fool of yourself by repeatedly trashing a book you admittedly have not read.

No logic can ever support your position, even if you are--by accident--right.

There ARE lingering issues with DK1, and that's all the "legitimate" reason Miller needs to continue his story.

A sequel doesn't HAVE to "top" the original, it just has to not REPEAT it. And DK2 certainly isn't just redoing DK1. It's a continuation.

Buy it or don't buy it. Like it or don't like it. That's up to you. But don't be so silly as to argue with people who HAVE READ the book. We have legs to stand on. You don't.

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#481631 - 12/15/01 01:01 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:
"But are you capable of determining something is poison with just a glancing look?"

Irrelevant. You should have asked how do you know that particular poison can kill you? You would have had a stronger arguement.


How is it irrelevant? Does just looking at white powder tell you you're looking at anthrax, powdered sugar, cocaine or snowflakes?
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#481632 - 12/15/01 03:16 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
stephen Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 1878
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:

I don't need to shoot myself with a gun to know it will hurt.

Again with the guns?
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#481633 - 12/15/01 03:48 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
(laughing)

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#481634 - 12/17/01 10:51 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"A sequel doesn't HAVE to "top" the original, it just has to not REPEAT it. And DK2 certainly isn't just redoing DK1. It's a continuation."

If the sequel approached the quality of the original, that would be good. The art IMHO, does not.

"Buy it or don't buy it. Like it or don't like it. That's up to you. But don't be so silly as to argue with people who HAVE READ the book. We have legs to stand on. You don't."

This from the guy who is trying to make this comic to read as if it is some kind of deep social commentary. I have two legs, Sock puppet 666, are you implying that I can't stand?
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481635 - 12/17/01 10:53 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"How is it irrelevant? Does just looking at white powder tell you you're looking at anthrax, powdered sugar, cocaine or snowflakes?"

Now this was a thoughtful inquiry. My answer is the initial assumption was that it was poison, not a fake. Some poisons can make you sick, some can permanently disable you, and some can kill you. That was the premise I based my original statement.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481636 - 12/17/01 10:55 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"Again with the guns?"

Okay, let me be more realistic...insert paper cutters instead of guns.....
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"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481637 - 12/17/01 02:16 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Batum Schrag Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 242
Loc: Seattle
I think he's got a point here.

I mean, all I have to do is skim these boards, and when I see Sam's name in the author column, I can pretty much rest assured that the corresponding message will contain little or no substance of any real value.

In my completely objective opinion, of course.
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#481638 - 12/17/01 03:08 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
MarcDeering Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/99
Posts: 719
Loc: Newport News, VA.
You know Sam, I love ya ta death, you really crack me up sometimes, but your seeming inability to simply shut the fuck up never ceases to amaze me.



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I BLEED black ink...
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Potlatchcomics.org
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#481639 - 12/18/01 01:42 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
"This from the guy who is trying to make this comic to read as if it is some kind of deep social commentary."

From your inability to see how the elements Miller put into DK2 mirror certain realities of today, I can only conclude that you're virtually ignorant of the real world outside of comic books.

Go back to reading your X-men, and leave the "big talk" to us grown-ups.

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#481640 - 12/18/01 09:05 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"Go back to reading your X-men, and leave the "big talk" to us grown-ups."

I don't read X-Men. Try again.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481641 - 12/18/01 09:07 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"You know Sam, I love ya ta death, you really crack me up sometimes, but your seeming
inability to simply shut the fuck up never ceases to amaze me."

Only when I have the last word, Marc, only when I have the last word.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481642 - 12/21/01 07:01 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
MARC NATHAN Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 68
Loc: REISTERSTOWN MARYLAND
As some of you know, I own a comic book store in the Baltimore area as well as running the Baltimore Comic-con. Sam lived in this area years ago and he and I were friends. From time to time we bump into each other at shows and try to stay in touch. He stopped by the store the other day on his way to holiday break. I told him that this thread was nutty yet the only thing that I felt was really unfair was ripping on the price. Anyone who has held this book in their hands knows that $7.95 was far from out of line. Sam BOUGHT Dark Knight 2. Now he can hate it for any reason he wants. I, on the other hand, liked it a lot. I hope we find out about Dick Grayson though...

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#481643 - 12/21/01 07:10 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Originally posted by MARC NATHAN:
I hope we find out about Dick Grayson though...


Oooh, good call. We never did find out why he and Bruce drifted apart after what happened to Jason, did we?
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#481644 - 12/23/01 09:08 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Marc,

I hope we still are friends.

Yep, I still hate it for all the reasons I have cited in the past.

I did have one nice thing to say about the cover. I thought the cover was better than Captain American #50, and I LIKE Gene Ha....

So I can be pretty objective...
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"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481645 - 12/23/01 11:02 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Merkin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/01
Posts: 47
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Quote:
Originally posted by fumetti:

...I can only conclude that you're virtually ignorant of the real world outside of comic books.



Fume-

I think that you're suffering from a lapse of logic here. If the problem is that Sam's pre-judging comic books without actually reading them, why would you presume that he was virtually ignorant of the world outside of comics. It appears that you'd be more reasonable inferring that he's equally ignorant of the world inside of comics.

No offense intended to you or your subject of course.

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#481646 - 12/23/01 06:03 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"I think that you're suffering from a lapse of logic here. If the problem is that Sam's pre-judging comic books without actually reading them, why would you presume that he was virtually ignorant of the world outside of comics. It appears that you'd be more reasonable inferring that he's equally ignorant of the world inside of comics.

No offense intended to you or your subject of course."

You numbskull of a sock puppet. NOBODY reads comics, they look at the pictures....
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481647 - 12/24/01 02:19 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
fumetti Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 922
?Fume-

I think that you're suffering from a lapse of logic here. If the problem is that Sam's pre-judging comic books without actually reading them, why would you presume that he was virtually ignorant of the world outside of comics. It appears that you'd be more reasonable inferring that he's equally ignorant of the world inside of comics."

You're late to the debate. Sam brought into this thread a discussion I started on a different thread regarding the real-life social issues that Miller comments on in DK2.

If anyone read DK2 and did NOT see that Miller alluding to current (and past) social issues, then they must not pay any attention to modern socio-political events.

Poor Sam doesn't read so good, tho, because I never said Miller's commentary was "deep" or "innovative"-- only that Miller was discussing those issues.

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#481648 - 12/24/01 11:36 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Merkin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/01
Posts: 47
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Catalino:

NOBODY reads comics, they look at the pictures....



Here, it seems, is the real root of one of Sam's problems. Sam is unaware that you're supposed to read the words that accompany the pictures in order to create a full narrative. All this time I'd just presumed a certain amount of willful ignorance on his part, and here it becomes obvious that the poor guy just has a conceptual problem understanding the nature of the medium.

Perhaps this also explains, at least partially, the incredibly hostile attitudes he expresses towards people who actually can substantiate their opinions when they read the books that they comment on. This might actually be the opportunity for Sam to learn to civilly converse with other comic book readers (but I'd guess the odds are skewed just a little bit towards the unlikely in that regard).

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#481649 - 12/27/01 03:22 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"Here, it seems, is the real root of one of Sam's problems. Sam is unaware that you're supposed to read the words that accompany the pictures in order to create a full narrative. All this time I'd just presumed a certain amount of willful ignorance on his part, and here it becomes obvious that the poor guy just has a conceptual problem understanding the nature of the medium."

Number one, what I wrote was a joke. Next time I will place a [img]/resources/ubb/wink.gif[/img] for you, so you may discern that in my future posts. As for the rest of your commentary, I take it you would not care for Marvel's Nuff said books this month.

You could have also summed up your lengthy commentary in one sentence. Perhaps you could also explain just how I have a conceptual problem understanding the nature of this medium. Perhaps I can best describe my defense as pictures are masterpieces, narrative stories are masterpieces, but place them together and you have what the general public calls the funny book, a piece of 'literature' suited for little children.

"Perhaps this also explains, at least partially, the incredibly hostile attitudes he expresses towards people who actually can substantiate their opinions when they read the books that they comment on. This might actually be the opportunity for Sam to learn to civilly converse with other comic book readers (but I'd guess the odds are skewed just a little bit towards the unlikely in that regard)."

I don't have hostile opinions toward those who differ from my own because they fail to substantiate their opinions on literary works they read. I marvel at such opinions who consider hack work genius and genius hack work, but isn't it all relative? As I stated in my initial post, those who like Miller will buy it, those who liked Dark Knight will try it, I don't think I could not have been any more objective than that.

I did buy it, I did read it, and stand by my first opinion which is: I would not recommend anyone purchasing this book. On the same token, I am certainly not going to prevent anyone from purchasing it either. It is the USA, no matter how many Wizards Miller tears up on stage....
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481650 - 12/28/01 07:58 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
MarcDeering Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/99
Posts: 719
Loc: Newport News, VA.
Bottom line folks?

Sam's still on crack.



------------------
Marc Deering
Embellisher
I BLEED black ink...
Double Eye Studios
Potlatchcomics.org
_________________________
Marc Deering
Inking is Sexy

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#481651 - 12/28/01 09:04 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Marc,

I wouldn't wish that fate even on Jack. Having seen what smoking crack can do to you and to your life (I had a roommate who was hooked on the stuff), it is a tragedy.

Bad taste, Marc. I am disappointed in that comment.

Sam
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481652 - 12/28/01 09:09 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
I love crack!

Oh, you are talking about drugs.

never mind....

[This message has been edited by jack (edited 12-28-2001).]

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#481653 - 12/29/01 09:06 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
MarcDeering Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/99
Posts: 719
Loc: Newport News, VA.
Sam, now c'mon. I say that to everyone here whose opinions I don't agree with. It's not to be taken literally.

And Jack's right, I love crack too! You know, clevage.

Hehehe...



------------------
Marc Deering
Embellisher
I BLEED black ink...
Double Eye Studios
Potlatchcomics.org
_________________________
Marc Deering
Inking is Sexy

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#481654 - 12/29/01 09:10 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Marc,

Just to let you know...I LOVED Lord of the Rings....the movie that is....

I wholeheartly concur with your assessment of the film
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481655 - 12/29/01 10:05 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
Your assessment is correct Mr Deering. I have to take severely copious amounts of drugs for many days to approach the state that Sammy acheives naturally

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#481656 - 12/29/01 10:02 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Does that mean you are the local drug dealer as well as the local comic dealer, Jack?

Just thought I would ask...
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481657 - 12/30/01 12:48 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Merkin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/01
Posts: 47
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Not having prefaced his above comment with one of those pointlessly plentiful smiley face icons, one can only presume that Sam is seriously making a slanderous innuendo towards Mr. Venooker, and attempting to poison the minds of local community pillars against Mr. Venooker's business establishment.

How horrible to see such a display of immoral behaviour on the part of Mr. Catalino. I can only encourage Mr. Venooker to vigorously defend his reputation, and that of his establishment, by filing a slander suit against the offending poster. In the spirit of unity and community coalesence, though, I encourage Mr. Venooker to forgive Sam his trespasses if he agrees to post a message to all areas of this message board which looks something like this;

"I, Sam Catalino, have a defective sense of irony and very little comprehension of what constitutes humor. Combined with my inability to understand the intricacies of subtlety, politics, comic book writing and polite discourse, I find myself in the unique position of not being able to comprehend the ramifications of even my own posts. If I understood the meaning of forgiveness I would beg same from Jack and all other Comicon.com posters who might be offended or even been irritated by my inane postings and posting patterns. I throw myself on the mercy of the community citing my willingness to be a straw man for all the silliest causes as a mitigating factor."

Jack, please, if Sammy is willing to post a message to that effect, forgive him. Obviously he knows not what he does.

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#481658 - 12/30/01 09:21 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"Merkin" AKA another of Jacks sock puppets was upset with this question I asked..

"Does that mean you are the local drug dealer as well as the local comic dealer, Jack?"

Just thought I would ask..."

Now no where does this state that Jack is a drug dealer(the question brought forth by Jack's admission prior to above post), it is a question, not a statement.

Of course I am not surprised that "mudkin" could tell the difference.

All there is the fact whether we are talking about legal or illegal drugs...
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481659 - 12/30/01 12:04 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Merkin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/01
Posts: 47
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Shammykins, you paranoid little strawman nudnik, are you really under the impression that all who find you ludicrous are as one?

The truth of the matter is that your inferences against Venooker were quite clear, and would only be judged ambiguous in the court of Mommy-and-Daddy-who-want-to-avoid-punishing-bad-baby-Sham.

And here I've gone to all the trouble of putting your truest deepest apology into words only to have you turn on me.

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Sam, you silly little goombah wanna-be. Have you no decency? (Sorry about that. Sometimes I just can't help posing rhetorical questions.)

Now stop being so un-Merkin and apologize to Jackie.

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#481660 - 12/30/01 04:58 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
No Easybake, I'm not the local drug delaer as well.

I do smoke pot however, so I know what it's like to be stoned. You could say in response, "I don't have to smoke pot to know what it's like to be stoned" you know a la some of your earlier DK2 comments about not having to read the book to be able to comment about it.

About DK2 I'll argue with you. But Sammy, you are naturally wasted, so I would say you would never have to take drugs to be more stoned than me, for example.

That's simply all I meant, you are so high when you post that no matter how hard I try, I can't achieve the satori you so obviously have been naturally graced with.

I think it's the Florida water, but then what do I know?

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#481661 - 12/30/01 07:42 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
"About DK2 I'll argue with you. But Sammy, you are naturally wasted, so I would say you would never have to take drugs to be more stoned than me, for example.

That's simply all I meant, you are so high when you post that no matter how hard I try, I can't achieve the satori you so obviously have been naturally graced with.

I think it's the Florida water, but then what do I know?"

Actually I don't do drugs of any kind, I only get high(in altitude) when I am flying on an airplane.

Answer to your last("...what do I know?") question. Nothing. Of course, that is not surprising.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481662 - 12/30/01 08:44 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Merkin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/01
Posts: 47
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Sammy flies on airplanes?


Lordy lord, I sure hope customs checks his shoes.

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#481663 - 12/31/01 08:32 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
jack Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/99
Posts: 12596
Loc: Just south of NYC
Actually I don't do drugs of any kind, I only get high(in altitude) when I am flying on an airplane.<<

Hey does anyone remember the Dirty Duck and Weevil strip Bobby London did in the Lampoon a few years ago?

Classic. This drug dealer walks up to Weevil and tries to sell him some acid, explaining to him the effects after he drops it.

So after this incredible explanation of the effects, Weevil "drops" the tab on the ground and says "for this I paid five dollars?"

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#481664 - 12/31/01 02:41 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Whatever.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481665 - 12/31/01 03:49 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Merkin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/01
Posts: 47
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
What stylish and pointed ennui!

C'mon, Sammy, be a man about it. Overtly admit when you've been out-Catalinoed instead of the subvert admission you've just splayed across the screen.

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#481666 - 12/31/01 04:24 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Guy_Fawkes Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/27/01
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally posted by steel:
DK2 is a fun book and exactly what I love about comics, a fantastic world with interesting characters embroiled in a never ending struggle. Inspires me to write. Couldn't anyone tell how much fun Miller was having with it? That is why it was worth doing. It's a good read. That's all you can ask for from a comic.

[This message has been edited by steel (edited 12-12-2001).]



I may have fun taking a dump on your sister, but that don't mean it's worth doing or worth your entertainment dollar.
_________________________
Yeah, I know my nic is stupid.

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#481667 - 12/31/01 04:34 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Chris Knowles Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/99
Posts: 875
Loc: USA
Getting back to the actual topic, I was analyzing the artwork and my best guess is that Miller spent no more than 1 or 2 hours inking each page. I would guess that he didn't take much more time than that pencilling each page. God bless him, $333,333 for a few weeks labor. What a hot ticket.

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#481668 - 12/31/01 05:44 PM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
Guess that is why they were calling Frank a hack....

And he is laughing all the way to the bank...
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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#481669 - 01/01/02 04:15 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Pee-Wee Weinstein Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 12
Loc: Los Angeles, CA USA
Sam-

I read it for you. It sucked more than you thought it would.

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#481670 - 01/01/02 09:37 AM Re: Bottom line on DK2
Samuel Catalino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/99
Posts: 4447
I got around to reading it not long ago.

I wish I hadn't.

Thanks, though.
_________________________
"If we lose a hundred troops a week, then Dean will be our next Prez." Jack V, avid Dean supporter with no concern for the troops.

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