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#495178 - 08/08/02 05:33 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
Brian Jacks Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 638
Loc: NYC
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chris lanier:
[QB]Our concern about the tyrannical Saddam and his "weapons of mass destruction" is particularly two-faced, as we supported Saddam, and helped him develop bio-weapon capabilities (we gave him his anthrax starter-kit -- the strain came from a lab in Maryland).[/b]

That's the first I've heard of this. Care to provide some links to back that up? And "real" links please, not some underground "news" agency.

In fact, we helped create the Taliban during the cold war.

Ok, that's a lie, the Taliban were created by Pakistan after the Cold War. We may have funded fundamentalists, but it wasn't the Taliban, and it served our interest at the time. It was the lesser of two evils.

The rest of your post is typical "blame America for all the world's ills." I won't get into the myriad of reasons why bad things happen, or why occasionally America is forced to support, once again, the lesser of two evils. It's life, it's International Politics, and compared to the rest of the nations on this planet, the US has done more to advance the cause of freedom and democracy than anyone else.

-Brian
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#495179 - 08/08/02 05:36 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
Brian Jacks Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 638
Loc: NYC
Quote:
Originally posted by santo:
[QB]So you are saying that giving less foreign aid is the solution?[/b]

Where did I say that? I said throwing more money at something is not a solution, I said nothing about giving less.

-Brian
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#495180 - 08/08/02 07:23 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
chris lanier Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 6
The US did not create the Taliban out of whole cloth, sure. But it did work with the ISI to fund the most fanatical groups of muhajideen, it did try to provoke a Soviet invasion -- and out of that situation came the Taliban. That's what I meant by US policies "helping to create" the Taliban. The US, under the influence primarily of Brezinski, did its best to ensure a slowly modernizing society was replaced by a gun-happy bombed-out theocracy.

I have to give it to you, though, "it served our interest at the time" pretty much sums it up (as long as "at the time" has a hard expiration date of 9/11/01). And if you don't think deliberately trying to start "another Vietnam" over the bodies of the Afghan population in the name of RealPolitik raises some serious questions about the ultimate moral high ground of "our interest," well, I'm glad you find it so easy to weigh the efficacy of other peoples' suffering.

I'll post some links on the anthrax stuff tomorrow -- the name of the lab in Maryland is the American Type Culture Collection, if you want to do a google yourself. It's a civilain outfit, but the US gov't licensed the anthrax for export to Iraq.

If, after listing about a dozen episodes of shameful US foreign policy, your best response is "it's typical blame America for all the world's ills," then it's probably not worth arguing with you (that's a good argumentative style, though -- imply some factual info I laid down is from a "non-real" news source, and then refuse to engage on any of the substantive points available for argument). I don't think the American government is the ultimate force of evil in the world, and it pisses me off that there are folks on the left who see America as the Darth Vader of the world, ignoring the unpleasant realities of international politics. But your apparent opinion that America can do no wrong, is the best of possible superpowers, and so on, seems mighty Panglossian of you.

I'm not asking for a rebuttal on every point, but do you have *any* real argument as to how overthrowing any of the democratically elected leaders listed above was actually "advancing the cause of freedom and democracy?" Heck, why not just narrow things down to one example -- I'll be curious to see if, by the time I come back with the anthrax links, you've been able to cook up some rationale -- any miniscule piece of silver lining whatsoever -- for our support for Mobutu.

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#495181 - 08/08/02 10:24 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
santo Offline
Member

Registered: 05/13/01
Posts: 91
Loc: Berkeley, CA, USA
Quote:
me:
So you are saying that giving less foreign aid is the solution?


Quote:
Slush:
Where did I say that? I said throwing more money at something is not a solution, I said nothing about giving less.


I know, I was just being an ass. Although you seem to be happy that we are giving "less", percentage-wise, than others. Whatever happened to that good ol' American competitive spirit? smile

But seriously, do you honestly believe that more foreign aid would be a waste? In the 21st century, you don't have a problem with thousands upon thousands of people dying from preventable causes like starvation or lack of medical care? You would prefer that our tax dollars be spent bailing out corporations that probably didn't pay taxes in the first place? And please don't bring out the "teach a man to fish" platitude, because that's more or less what the Peace Corps and USAID do.

Anyways, thanks to the other Chris for bringing up most of the points I was about to...I think it's pretty evident that the only democracy U.S. foreign policy is intended to help is U.S. democracy.

Here's a pretty funny flash cartoon about Iraq from Mark Fiore , one of my liberal Bay Area comrades.
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#495182 - 08/08/02 10:32 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
Kimota Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 1336
Loc: Louisville KY USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Slush:


There may be no Atta/Iraqi connection at all, but the Czech's have little reason to make this up.

-Brian


The Czech's aren't making it up, but they were never sure that the man was Atta, and now that they have egg on their faces they can't back off, even though they admit that they aren't completely sure. Our own intelligence agencies, which have an interest in believing the Czechs, don't. No record of Atta traveling to Prague at the time the informant said, "Hey, this might be the guy" makes it very doubtful that it was him. The fact that the Czechs are "officially" standing behind their report is irrelevant.

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#495183 - 08/08/02 10:38 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
Kimota Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 1336
Loc: Louisville KY USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Slush:


You're reading old reports.
-Brian


The Washington Times piece was written after all the sources you cited, btw.

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#495184 - 08/09/02 03:04 AM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
chris lanier Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 6
Well, I lied about waiting a whole day to post the anthrax info... but Brian, if you still want to provide that pro-Mobutu rationale, I'm patient, I'll wait a couple more days...

An overview of US exports which were used to build bio-weapons in Iraq (as well as materials that could be used to build nuclear weapons) can be found here:

http://www.progressive.org/0901/anth0498.html

Now, since the Progressive is a lefty mag, you might assume they're just making this stuff up, but the 1994 Senate Report referenced in the article can be found here:

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/report/report_toc.htm

I couldn't find the full text of the 1992 report (it's over 400 pages), but the relevant bibliographic info is:

United States Export Policy Toward Iraq Prior to Iraq's Invasion of Kuwait (hearing of the Senate Banking Committee on 27 October 1992) US GPO: 1993, 497 pp.

The US wasn't the only supplier -- France and Britain also supplied materials.

Here is an interview with Said Aburish, who worked with Hussein's regime to acquire weapons of mass destruction. It also tricks out the history of the alliance between Hussein and the West (the bioweapon info is towards the bottom of the page):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html

It's a very intersting interview -- there are multiple pages to it that are worth reading.

Here's a declassified CIA document, posted by the Federation of American Scientists, evaluating Iraq's chemical weapons capabilities:

http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960702/72566_01.htm

This lays out that the US gov't knew, in detail, how Hussein was using chemical weapons against the Kurds in 1987. We didn't stop the chemical weapons exports to Iraq till November 1989.

The picture that comes out of this, at least from my perspective, is not one of monolithic evil -- there were obviously elements within the US gov't that that were uneasy, to say the least, about our willingness to stock Hussein's toybox. But the triumph of RealPolitik, in this case, seems less driven by clear-eyed democratic strategy, than by a cynical desire on the part of arms manufacturers to cash in on cold war power plays.

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#495185 - 08/11/02 04:09 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
robo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 120
Loc: scotland
why dont you check out the quote below to see what your jackass of a president has been saying this week
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"the French don't have a word for entrepeneur" George Dubya Bush

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#495186 - 08/11/02 04:44 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
Cisco Bunny Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 2280
Loc: New York City
George Bush Jr. is in a bit of a pickle with Iraq. He can either invade the country, completely unprovoked and risk making America look like a bully, or he can try to link Iraw to 9/11, and make his father look like a blundering who screwed up the 1st Gulf War by not taking Saddam out, and has the blood of 3,000 American's on his hands (which were already pretty blood-stained to begin with).

Regardless of what happens, it proves that the millions of war protestors in the early 90s were correct. The Gulf War accomplished nothing, and should not have happened.

Every week, Dubya looks more and more like a one-termer.

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#495187 - 08/14/02 05:43 PM Re: Any artists want to help me slag Dubya?
ChrisW Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Originally posted by santo:
flash cartoon


Very funny smile
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