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#500203 - 09/26/02 05:18 PM "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
BrianH Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 209
Loc: d
I read the review of this script. It sounds like total crap.
While i read it i was like "good god.....this could be 100 times worse than Batman and Robin".
This looks like another case of hollywood morons "re-imagining" a comic character because you know....comic creators and comic fans are retards .

Review of the Superman script by JJ Abrams and Jon Peters-

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=13350


WB officially announces that Brett Ratner(guh....) is directing, is working from the JJ Abrams, Jon Peters script:

http://www.superherohype.com/cgi-bin/news/fullnews.cgi?newsid1033004412,10728,

and if you don't want to read the whole script review i'll run down what i thought was lame:

*spoilers*?
.
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1.)Krypton never explodes. Instead Clark is sent to earth because of some kind of "prophecy"
2.)young super clark brutally beats a guy that tries to rape ma kent
3.)Superman's Costume in a can: Clark find a canister, opens it, out comes the superman costume that floats around or something
4.)Lex Luthor is a special agent for the CIA.
5.)Superman Dies
6.)Jor-el senses that superman is dead, kills himself, goes to heaven, talks to supes and convinces Clark that he can't die
7.)Supes digs himself out of his own grave
8.)Apparently Jimmy Olsen is gay......for no reason
9.)Lois and Clark meet for the first time at a kegger
10.)Superman knows Kung fu (aka there are flying kung fu action sequences)
11.)At the end Lex Luthor reveals that he is from krypton.
12.)Final battle= Superman vs. A flying, Superpowered Lex Luthor .
13.) Pa Kent dies
14.) Film ends with supes flying off in a rocket, heading back to krypton for training?

Good Lord.

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#500204 - 09/26/02 05:35 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
mightymuggle Offline
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 108
Loc: Portsmouth
OH MY GOD!! Does that sound like the biggest pile of poo in all history of big piles of poo!

i thought batman and robin sucked but this seems to be to be a total disregard for any history that actually exists.
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#500205 - 09/26/02 06:35 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Shed Wiggins Offline
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Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 609
Loc: CT
Are you sure you weren't just having a very vivid dream? No offense but I highly doubt that any of that is true.
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#500206 - 09/26/02 06:45 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Lord Julius Offline
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Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 523
Loc: St. Louis, Mo.
Quote:
Originally posted by Shed Wiggins:
Are you sure you weren't just having a very vivid dream? No offense but I highly doubt that any of that is true.


I dunno. There's an official WB press release announcing that a project with Jon Peters at the helm is a go. Sandman fans will remember Peters as the man who deep-sized a very good script that hardcore fans had problems with for not being true enough to the comics and bringing in some guy who wrote lines like "Puny mortals. To think you could harm me! The Sandman! Lord of Dreams!"

And the guy that "Ain't It Cool" says wrote the screenplay they've got is listed in the official WB release as working with Peters to "reimagine" Superman.

So, yeah. Bad as it sounds, I think it's the real deal.

The good news is only 1 in every 10 films greenlighted actually ends up getting made. Let's hope this is one of the other nine.
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#500207 - 09/26/02 06:52 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Zoddman Offline
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Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 51
Loc: Redmond, Washington
Oh the pain the PAIN!

This all sounds like total crap except for one scene:The second best Superman sequence in the film is the montage that follows, as we see him slowly slip into this new role. He goes to a mountain top in the Andes and just... listens. There's cries for help from all over the world, and at first, it seems to be too much. But he focuses in on one particular cry. Then another. Then another. And he begins to fly from place to place, fast as he can, never staying for thanks. And for this three or four pages, Abrams brings it all together again.

To me, THAT'S Superman.
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#500208 - 09/26/02 07:04 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Director's Cameo Offline
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Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 501
Loc: Surrey, B.C., CANADA
One thing I'd just like to throw out there is the aspect of faithfulness to source material vs. making a feasible translation from mediums.

X-Men made some ch-ch-changes in translation, such as the fact that Wolverine is not 5'2", Jean Grey becomes a doctor (instead of Dr. Henry Macoy), the "classic" X-Men uniforms aren't used. However, generally speaking, the film got good response.

Batman & Robin eschews the father/daughter relationship between Barbara Gordon and the Commissioner, turns Bane into a non-speaking thug, gives the costumes bat-nipples. Generally speaking, the film got a horribly negative response, with many people clamoring to see Joel Schumacher's head posted on a sharpened stick.

Now, when held side to side, both films actually make quite radical changes in the translation. One could argue that the number of changes X-Men made were even more than Batman & Robin, such as the fact that the characters are almost unrecognizeable when held up to their comic book counterparts, changes in the character's origins being radically changed (Rogue's relationship with Wolverine for one), and the fact that characters are almost unrecognizeable when held up to their comic book counterparts (most notably Wolverine, Mystique, Toad, and Sabertooth). Batman & Robin kept the mythos intact, with many of the changes being cosmetic.

I'm not saying that Batman & Robin was a better movie by any means. It's not the radical alteration in the translation phase that killed the movie. It was the stupid one-liners, the general hokeyness, the directing and acting done on autopilot, and the heavy-handed attempts at humour that resulted in groans.

X-Men on the other hand had sharp dialogue (Wolverine calling Cyclops a dick was hilarious), competent directing, actual fight choreography (as opposed to constant quick cutting), good visual effects (done on a small budget!), and an actual storyline.

Don't get me wrong...if the rumours are indeed true, then I am definitely saving myself $8 by refusing to see this one. Being that enough people are familiar enough with the Superman films (especially after watching the cartoons and the original films by Richard Donner), there is no reason for such radical alterations.

But then, keep in mind, the actual script has yet to surface. We are just reading a review on AICN and that's just about it. Being that it is AICN (which I find to be an absolute headache to read), I see no reason why we should not be taking it with a grain of salt.

The way I see it, this has caused way too much controversy, when the script hasn't even been released yet. For all we know, the script could be a fake. Heck, it could've even be written by Bill Jemas as an Anti-DC plant.
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#500209 - 09/26/02 11:58 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
BrianH Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 209
Loc: d
i hope it's fake, but here's why it might not be:

1.)Press release mentions "re-imagining" superman

2.)Jon Peters is co writing (also mentioned in the press release).

Kevin Smith had major problems with this guy when he was working on a script for "superman lives".

Smith said this guy wanted Brainiac to have a cuddly space dog and thought that Brainiac should have a gay robot sidekick for no apparent reason. Im serious. There were many other things mentioned. I think this idiot didn't even want Supes to fly because he hated the flying effects in the earlier superman films.

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#500210 - 09/27/02 12:40 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Vox Sapien Offline
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Registered: 08/06/01
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Loc: Sydney, Australia
Peters also said that he wanted Sean Penn to play Superman because Penn is like(get this)...a caged animal!(??)
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#500211 - 09/27/02 03:45 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
krisstacks Offline
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Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 299
Loc: parts unknown
Peters also wanted a giant mechanical spider in Superman.When that version fell apart he jumped to "wild wild west".If you saw that you get what I'm saying.If you hav'nt seen it then dont.I would literally rather blow my brains out than sit through it again.

Oh yeah,He also thought he and Kevin Smith "got" Superman because they were "from the street"-his words.What the fuck does that even mean?

What a jackass.
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#500212 - 09/27/02 05:15 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Shed Wiggins Offline
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Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 609
Loc: CT
Well, they are making a Jesus movie with Mel Gibson ( seriously) so we should give him a gay sidekick named Jeffe and lightsaber. Hollywood is screwy, guys.
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#500213 - 09/27/02 10:21 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Thats almost as weird as that wacky British version of the Avengers.

Y'know the one where Jarvis in a bowler was the main character and the Wasp without any powers was his sidekick, except they had different names, and no other Avengers where part of the show?

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#500214 - 09/27/02 10:32 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Scout99 Offline
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Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 1223
Insanity, thy name is Jon Peters.

He has obviously been freebasing since the Batman movie became a hit. laugh


My suggestions for Superman 5:

Superman foils another crime operated by corrput businessman Lex Luthor. Luthor's pissed, putting a warrant out for Superman. Many thugs get their butts kicked. Lois wants to marry Clark/Supes, but "responsibility" hold the Boy Scout back, plus she would be in danger. Brainiac gets the warrant, after arriving on Earth. He sics Doomsday on Supes and win. Earth mourns. Heroes fights against Doomsday and are beaten up badly. Batman invents a Clark Kent robot as a cover. Lois gets kidnapped by Luthor's thugs. Brainiac double crosses Luthor after being buds. He wants the whole world. Superman's spirit on a higher existence plane, talks to Jor-El and Lara. They tell him about Brainiac. Superman goes to the yellow sun, comes out reborn. Fights Doomsday and Brainiac and wins. Luthor gets slugged by Batman. Clark and Lois get married.

If that whole idea sucks, I digress.

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#500215 - 09/27/02 11:02 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
I don't see what everyone's problem is. Between this and the Keanu Reeves Hellblazer, this is going to be quite a couple years for really great accidental comedy.

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#500216 - 09/27/02 11:08 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Scout99 Offline
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Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 1223
Good point, Dan. Still, you would think the WB execs would learn from the mistake known as "Batman and Robin". God, what a shitflick.

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#500217 - 09/27/02 11:16 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
GOOGAM Son of GOOM Offline
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Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 114
Loc: athens, ga
* iit's a real script, alright.
from www.comics2film.com

WB Furious Over Superman Script Hoopla?
Thursday, September 26, 2002 5:00 CDT

This little bit of news comes from 'Robsuper' & 'david1313' by way of the Superman Cinema site.

WB are absolutely furious at Aint It Cool News' review of the script and is complete panic mode. Heads are rolling and the entire studio is in turmoil. It seems they are scared to death they may have another BATMAN & ROBIN situation on their hands (they do) where negative buzz kills the film before it is even released.

Someone who HATED the script and fought against it is the one who leaked it. The Aint It Cool News review is 100% correct.

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#500218 - 09/27/02 11:27 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Scout99 Offline
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Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 1223
The studio execs should take my version into account. It's not the best, yet it's sensical. smile

Somewhere in California, Sam Raimi and George Lucas are laughing. Good and hard.

If Abrams get canned (if not, he'll get a brain), here are my suggestions for screenwriter:

1) Kevin Smith: Peters was a dope to dismiss him.

2)M. Night Shyamalan: "Unbreakable" rocked.

3)Alan Burnett, Paul Dini and Bruce Timm: these three are the genius behind "Batman: TAS", "Superman: TAS", "Batman Beyond" and "Justice League" (Timm only with Rich Fogel, Glen Murakami and Jim Tucker, really). They should be treated like kings at the WB studios!

4) Frank Miller: Hell, I let him write Batman vs. Superman too.

5)Jeph Loeb: He knows where the bodies are buried ("Teen Wolf", "Commando"), plus he wrote a nifty Superman with Ed McGuinness supplying the art.

6)Mike Chabon: A Pulitzer-Prizer winner. If you haven't read "Kavalier & Clay", you are nuts!

Any other suggesstions would be super (bad pun)!

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#500219 - 09/27/02 01:33 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Peter David Offline
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Registered: 04/04/01
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Loc: NY, NY
I'm not entirely sure I understand why fans support and acclaim the "Ultimates" line even though it features divergences of staggering magnitude--after decades of comic book companies trying to maintain consistent continuity--while at the same time fans go nuts when Hollywood mucks with film versions of the characters even though Hollywood *traditionally* screws around with the source material.

But that could just be me.

PAD

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#500220 - 09/27/02 01:54 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Good point. If this had been released in comics form, with a little "Elseworlds" logo on it, nobody would care at all.

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#500221 - 09/27/02 01:54 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Scout99 Offline
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Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 1223
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter David:
I'm not entirely sure I understand why fans support and acclaim the "Ultimates" line even though it features divergences of staggering magnitude--after decades of comic book companies trying to maintain consistent continuity--while at the same time fans go nuts when Hollywood mucks with film versions of the characters even though Hollywood *traditionally* screws around with the source material.

But that could just be me.

PAD


Maybe it's the fact, Peter, that in the comic book industry, there's not a lot of pretentious (and overly bad) creative input from the exectuives, unlike Hollywood (George Lucas and others are lucky to fund their own work.). I don't know the industry as well as you, but other than an editor and a editor-in-chief, I don't think you have had to lock horns with suits, who haven't written a work of fiction, in your career.

I could be wrong, though. Tell us if you have.

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#500222 - 09/27/02 01:59 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Andrey Kovrin Offline
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Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 572
Well, one big difference is that not all the key details and important plot points in the Ultimate line are leaked months or years in advance. Sure, there's some teaser material, and accompanying handwringing, but fans often first learn of the divergences by reading the stories themselves, and get to judge how well they work.

This Superman thing, if it's for real, is still more severe than anything I've seen in the Ultimates. Krypton doesn't explode? Lex Luthor is from Krypton? I thought the whole pint of Lex Luthor, and what makes him interesting as well as weirdly heroic, is that he's simply a highly accomplished, intelligent human being. Worse than that, does it make any sense whatsoever for the producers to spoil such a major revelation before the movie has even been filmed?!

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#500223 - 09/27/02 02:12 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
BrianH Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 209
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Also if you don't like the Ultimate comics you have new reg. Marvel comics coming out every month.

In this case i don't think they'll be making two new Superman movies: One "re-imagining" movie and one based on the comics.

Plus that script is crap. Those aren't improvements IMO

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#500224 - 09/27/02 02:13 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Elayne Riggs Offline
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Registered: 01/29/99
Posts: 2983
Loc: Bronx, NY, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by jollyman:
Thats almost as weird as that wacky British version of the Avengers. Y'know the one where Jarvis in a bowler was the main character and the Wasp without any powers was his sidekick, except they had different names, and no other Avengers where part of the show?


Oh, I thought you meant the wacky British version of the Avengers where Jarvis is gay, Hulk is horny, Cap kicks Banner in the head and-- no wait, that's the one that's actually being published...

I also tend to doubt the script is for real. All the studios are paying close attention to how well this year's comic book movies have done when they've stuck to the source material; they're not going to screw with this icon that much (nor would the license holders allow them to).

- Elayne
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#500225 - 09/27/02 02:32 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
gene phillips Offline
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Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Another reason fans care more about bad film adaptations than bad Elseworlds sagas:

The bad Elseworld saga usually doesn't become a dominant image for what either comics fandom or the World Outside thinks of for this or that character. Many film-versions do.

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#500226 - 09/27/02 02:33 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by Andrey Kovrin:
Well, one big difference is that not all the key details and important plot points in the Ultimate line are leaked months or years in advance.


You chose to go online and read a thread about the coming Superman movie. You sought out the spoilers. It's not like AOL-Timewarner is leaving notes on your pillow.

Quote:
Originally posted by WADE:
Also if you don't like the Ultimate comics you have new reg. Marvel comics coming out every month.


Well... go to your local video rental store. You have four movies that run closely to the comics.

But assume for a moment that you don't. So? Why is it your right to have a faithful adaption of Superman, if that's not what the studio wants to do?

The studios don't owe you a movie you'll like.

Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
The bad Elseworld saga usually doesn't become a dominant image for what either comics fandom or the World Outside thinks of for this or that character. Many film-versions do.


Please find me a man, woman, or child in this country who is not aware of the basic premise of Superman, and will not know, say, that Lex Luthor is not actually from Krypton.

If nothing else, they've probably seen Smallville.

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#500227 - 09/27/02 02:40 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Scout99 Offline
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Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 1223
Ouch, Dan! You're good with points. laugh

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#500228 - 09/27/02 02:43 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Thanks. smile And I honestly don't mean to come off nasty here... the whole thing just smacks of no-organic-webshooters to me...

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#500229 - 09/27/02 02:47 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Korvac Offline
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Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Another difference is that everybody in our insular little world knows that the Ultimate versions are not the sole definitive versions. Even a bad movie is seen by many, many, many more people than a wildly succesfull comic.

eg: everybody thinks Batman wears a rubber suit, that The Hulk died after falling from a helicopter, that Wolverine is a strapping 6 footer, etc...

So the problem is that this new movie (And for the record, I don't disagree with changes to continuity per se - just crappy stupid changes.) would BECOME Superman for a huge audience dwarfing the comics community.

And Supe, and that audience, deserves better.
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#500230 - 09/27/02 02:51 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Fin Fang Foom Offline
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Registered: 02/02/01
Posts: 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
I also tend to doubt the script is for real. All the studios are paying close attention to how well this year's comic book movies have done when they've stuck to the source material; they're not going to screw with this icon that much (nor would the license holders allow them to).


Oh, please. Do you /honestly/ think anyone at DC would be able to exercise more than minimal creative control over such a high-profile project? (This is the company that, I kid you not, had to scramble to have Clark Kent and Lois Lane get married in the comics because it was happening on the television series.) Even if it were possible, Levitz has proven time and again that he prefers to keep a low corporate profile.

That said, though, there are elements that are so far off the mark that one can't help but wonder if this isn't a version of the script planted to expose leaks.

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#500231 - 09/27/02 02:55 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Kommando XXX Offline
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Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 195
That script is written pretty badly, to say the least. And I'm not talking about "Superman knows kung-fu" or "Lex Luthor is from Krypton." I'm talking about the things like "Evil Beat" and others like that.
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#500232 - 09/27/02 02:56 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by Fin Fang Foom:
This is the company that, I kid you not, had to scramble to have Clark Kent and Lois Lane get married in the comics because it was happening on the television series.


Actually, I heard a different version of the same story. (Although I may be wrong.) The one I heard was that Superman #75 was supposed to be Lois & Clark's wedding. But two seasons down the road, they were getting married on the show. So Warner Bros wanted them married at the same time, and told the creative teams "just think up a plot for the next couple years. Y'know, fill it with something."

Needless to say this angered them. So they thought of something else to do with issue #75. smile

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#500233 - 09/27/02 03:07 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
BrianH Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 209
Loc: d
Well... go to your local video rental store. You have four movies that run closely to the comics.

>>>>>>>>>>> I'd only say 2 run close to the comic and the first one was the one i really liked. I'd like to see a new one with todays effects that's faithful to the comics

But assume for a moment that you don't. So? Why is it your right to have a faithful adaption of Superman, if that's not what the studio wants to do?

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well i never said it had to be 100% faithful.
......But that script is so far off.....
It's like taking a gamble when you have a sure thing already. If you stay loyal to the comic you've got millions of Superman fans that will see it, love it and tell everyone else to go see it. It'll become a big hit and then all the non fans follow because it'll be *the* movie .
You go with this script and Superman fans will probably be like "Huh? This isn't superman" . Then you might have a bomb on your hands.

but if the studio wants to throw their money away......whatever

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#500234 - 09/27/02 03:08 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by WADE:
It's like taking a gamble when you have a sure thing already. If you stay loyal to the comic you've got millions of Superman fans that will see it, love it and tell everyone else to go see it.


The same millions of fans who buy what's in the comic each week?

Quote:
40.....84.46....SUPERMAN #181...$2.25...DC....37,883


Movies and comics have different ideas on what kind of numbers constitute success. And from a marketing standpoint, you can quite easily say, "Well... it's not like America's dying to see what they already have. Let's give 'em something different."

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#500235 - 09/27/02 03:10 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
J33Edwards Offline
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Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 122
Loc: Illinois
Sweet I'm getting my tickets in advance!

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#500236 - 09/27/02 03:13 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
BrianH Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 209
Loc: d
You have to buy the comic every week to be a fan of Superman)? come on, you know and i know that their are millions of people that have read and liked Superman comics (and became fans of the character because of these comics). This doesn't necessarily mean they still read the comics right now.

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#500237 - 09/27/02 03:24 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Every week? No. But if these millions of people still had an interest in Superman as it is, it would be reflected in higher sales than 37,000.

Lots of people have liked Superman. And I'm sure the assumption from the marketing department is "but they outgrew it. Let's change it so they enjoy it as adults." Why do you think Smallville owes more to James Van Der Beek than it does to Siegel and Shuster?

Millions of people had Cabbage Patch Kids as children. It doesn't mean they'd see a movie about them now.

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#500238 - 09/27/02 03:32 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
BrianH Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 209
Loc: d
Still a gamble .....
i think you're banking on people that enjoyed the comics during the 60's,70's,80's,90's....etc to either be dead or have bad memories.

Bottom line is that the thing's definitely gonna bomb if they go with that script (of course....IMO)

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#500239 - 09/27/02 03:42 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Andrey Kovrin Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 572
I actually think you do need to tweak these things a little. Hey, it's not like the comics haven't done it. Particularly the visuals... outfits like Superman's were designed for the four-color printing process and look strange on the movie screen. No, I'm not saying he needs black leather or something... I think the Ultimate version of Captain America was a good job of shifting a traditional comic book outfit in the direction of something someone might believably wear.

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#500240 - 09/27/02 03:55 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
The OC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 1985
Quote:
Originally posted by Mvoid:


Actually, I heard a different version of the same story. (Although I may be wrong.) The one I heard was that Superman #75 was supposed to be Lois & Clark's wedding. But two seasons down the road, they were getting married on the show. So Warner Bros wanted them married at the same time, and told the creative teams "just think up a plot for the next couple years. Y'know, fill it with something."

Needless to say this angered them. So they thought of something else to do with issue #75. smile



That's the more accurate version, though some details don't quite match the news reports at the time. DC got double-faked -- ready to marry them, but delayed to match the show, and then the show abruptly decided to marry them after all. I think this was over the course of only one year, though.
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#500241 - 09/27/02 04:54 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dave Miller Offline
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Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 181
The Last Temptation of Kal-El.
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#500242 - 09/27/02 05:33 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Scout99:


Maybe it's the fact, Peter, that in the comic book industry, there's not a lot of pretentious (and overly bad) creative input from the exectuives, unlike Hollywood (George Lucas and others are lucky to fund their own work.). I don't know the industry as well as you, but other than an editor and a editor-in-chief, I don't think you have had to lock horns with suits, who haven't written a work of fiction, in your career.

I could be wrong, though. Tell us if you have.


Jenette Kahn generally left day-to-day operations to her subordinates, but there were certainly times where she got involved...including the SUPERGIRL storyline involving the reveal of Comet's identity.

And Bill Jemas, who hadn't written or even read comics to my knowledge, had his hands all over the "Ultimates" line. Plus mandates have routinely come down over the years from Marvel suits...not story specific so much as, "From now on we want this" or "You can't do that."

And, Oh my God, let's not even get *in* to the meddling of the Comics Code Authority.

The bottom line is that Hollywood makes routine changes on classics that had been around for centuries. In a world where Hester Prynn or Quasimodo get happy endings, why do people spend time and energy going nuts over whatever Hollywood's going to do to comic book characters? We should realize that nothing is immune from Hollywood tampering and instead decide simply whether we're going to go see it or not when it comes out. And yes, absolutely, think of it as an "Elseworlds" story, because really, what else *is* it supposed to be *but* that? The comics are the comics, and the movie versions happen over on Earth-Flick.

PAD

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#500243 - 09/27/02 05:43 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:
Another difference is that everybody in our insular little world knows that the Ultimate versions are not the sole definitive versions. Even a bad movie is seen by many, many, many more people than a wildly succesfull comic.

eg: everybody thinks Batman wears a rubber suit, that The Hulk died after falling from a helicopter, that Wolverine is a strapping 6 footer, etc...

So the problem is that this new movie (And for the record, I don't disagree with changes to continuity per se - just crappy stupid changes.) would BECOME Superman for a huge audience dwarfing the comics community.

And Supe, and that audience, deserves better.


He "deserves" better?

C'mon...even in comics, he's undergone massive changes in powers, character, marital status, vulnerabilities. Luthor went from being an evil genius always clad in prison gray to a multi-millionaire.

Why does "everybody" think Batman wears a rubber suit? If nothing else, a goodly number of people still think of Batman as how Adam West looked. The Hulk died from a helicopter? DO you seriously think the movie-going public is going to reject the Ang Lee film by saying, "What kind of crap is this? We know the Hulk is dead!"

What fractured me, upon reading the original website posting on it, was the complaint that the reinvisioning of Krypton made it just like Naboo. Why? Probably because the writer thought of icy, cold spires as Krypton. Me, I hear that Krypton is idyllic and lush and I think, "Oh, they went back to the original comic book version."

Look, when I was a kid, my image of Superman was bolstered by the George Reeves version. Two decades later, there was Chris Reeve. Fifteen or so years later there was Dean Cain and "Lois and Clark." So now they want to do this thing. Maybe Superman is like a Vampire Slayer: A new one is born into each generation. Movie and TV versions come and go, and in the meantime the comics keep right on trucking along. To me, that's the only important thing.

PAD

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#500244 - 09/27/02 05:45 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Mvoid:
Millions of people had Cabbage Patch Kids as children. It doesn't mean they'd see a movie about them now.


I would if they fought each other using Kung Fu moves.

PAD

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#500245 - 09/27/02 06:16 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by Mvoid:
Millions of people had Cabbage Patch Kids as children. It doesn't mean they'd see a movie about them now.


If people went to see the Mario Bros. movie, they'll go see ANYTHING.
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#500246 - 09/27/02 06:26 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Eel O'Brian Offline
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Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 3080
Loc: North Kackalackee
They always change things around for the films, no matter what the source material may be - novel, play, or comic. Hooper had an affair with Brody's wife in Jaws the novel, the entire ending of John Grisham's The Firm was changed, The Joker never killed Batman's parents in the comics, Peter Parker never shot webbing out of armholes, Lex Luthor never stole nuclear weapons with the aid of a blithering idiot and a ditzy sexpot. Part of it's merchandising kickbacks, part of it's trying to make it conform to 'audience friendly' and 'Hollywood Symmetry' standards, and a good part of it is the 'I Can Do It Better' syndrome many directors, screenwriters, etc. experience. All the uproar in the world doesn't stop it, ever.

This script doesn't look to be the least bit real to me. Saturday morning cartoons don't have dialogue that awful anymore.

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#500247 - 09/27/02 06:30 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Eel O'Brian Offline
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Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 3080
Loc: North Kackalackee
Wow, that'll teach me to post before I read the whole thread. Apologies for stating the obvious after everyone else already has.

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#500248 - 09/27/02 08:31 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Pksoze Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/02
Posts: 1
I don't know I think making Lex an evil CIA agent was interesting. However, making him Kryptonian doesn't it take away the purpose Superman having a human as an arch foe. You could easily change the villain to Zod to make it work.

They could still have Krypton explode and make all the evil villains come from Argo city or the Phantom zone.

The Superman dying scene sounds pretty goofy especially since Kryptonite is remnants of Krypton exploding.

I honestly don't know how to feel. Moriarty could be obviously biased the sctript is a first draft. It could be much better than we think. I don't see anything from Brett Ratner that shows me he can handle an epic Superman movie.

I might be suprised I read the original Superman script by Puzo was campy crap. Look how that turned out.

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#500249 - 09/27/02 10:41 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
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Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter David:
If nothing else, a goodly number of people still think of Batman as how Adam West looked.
I was a Spider-Man fan when Batman first hit the airwaves. The Batman TV show made me buy a few. I'm sure I wasn't alone in picking up the Batman comic.

So, when someone picks up a Superman comic after this movie comes out, what could the new comic reader find between the pages of the comic book?

Ah well.
Quote:
Look, when I was a kid, my image of Superman was bolstered by the George Reeves version. Two decades later, there was Chris Reeve. Fifteen or so years later there was Dean Cain and "Lois and Clark."
Well understood.
And while I'm neither a comic book guy or a movie guy, I'll suspect this proposed movie is not going to be able to become a tentpole movie.

And with the spoiler now quite public, everyone will know it's not a tentpole movie.

This is a dynamic that has its own life now.

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#500250 - 09/27/02 11:57 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
gwalla Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 486
Loc: Berkeley, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by WADE:
Also if you don't like the Ultimate comics you have new reg. Marvel comics coming out every month.


Ad if you don't like the Superman movie you have the reg. DC comics comig out every month.

So?

Quote:
Plus that script is crap. Those aren't improvements IMO


This I thik is the real issue. It matters not whether the script adheres closely to the comic or not, but rather whether it is good or not. And this sounds like a complete pile of doggie-doo.
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#500251 - 09/28/02 12:03 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by gwalla:quote:
Quote:
Code:
Originally posted by WADE:
Also if you don't like the Ultimate comics you have new reg. Marvel comics coming out every month.

And if you don't like the Superman movie you have the reg. DC comics comig out every month. So?
It's about dilution of the character. One comic book gets popular, another may get shut down. Only a few people lose their jobs. The TV series based on Superman is a slightly bigger situation, but it's similar. Having one concept follow another is one thing, but to have competing origins hitting the audience at the same time is something else. Most folks, presented with two completely different choices for their stories, will not willingly choose to follow both stories. Anyone who points out the Ultimates' relative success is ignoring that the general public's aversion to such a concept.

If two Star Trek shows were on concurrently, and had the Romulans good guys in one show and bad in another show, you would have fans pretty much writing in to cuss and or laugh. That the creators of the ST franchise are some sort of joke. After all, why go out of the way to reinvent a set of villians? Why not create new villians? Why water down the characters? With the comic books, you might get a larger audience. With TV/movies, it's confusion leading to dilution. Of course, I'm not in the business. I'm only speculating here.


(Possible Movie Script SPOILERS)
.
.
If you are the producers of a TV show based on the early days of Superman (Smallville), and one of the main characters in that TV show (Lex)is shown in the movie to be his cousin, people watching the TV show might get the idea that the same character on the TV show has the same relationship.

If you are the producer and these events come to pass, do you choose to allow the descrepancy to continue, essentially watering down the characters with completely different origin stories, or, if you are the studio in ultimate control of the icons, choose to shut down the smaller TV production?

Rumor has it that the Smallville producers have voiced such concerns. I have no way of checking such a rumor, and repeat it as such.

The whole point of Superman is that he is unique. That Superman is powerful and that he cares. Anything he fights has to be powerful and obviously misuses that power.

I don't mind Lex being super powered, but the vengence/grudge thing ("My daddy hates your daddy so I hate you") rarely plays out well, and if that's the ultimate reason behind the conflict, the characterization is very, very weak. One dimensional, at best.

Villians that are complex and well motivated captivate audiences.

This script doesn't reinvent the Superman mythos as much as it seems to reinvent his nemesis, and it the script is real, it's anything like the reviewer mentioned, it's a weak foundation for any "reimagining" of the character.

So, in my feeble mind, the Lex descibed in the movie review isn't so much Lex Luthor with a different origin, it's some new villian with the name "Lex Luthor" stamped on his forehead. And just to make sure we know it's Lex, lets keep him bald.

Ah well.

In the long run, it's about money.
It always is.

Walt Stone

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#500252 - 09/28/02 01:56 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Eel O'Brian:
the entire ending of John Grisham's The Firm was changed


And vastly improved, in my opinion. That's something else people never discuss: Sometimes the movie versions *are* demonstrably better. The ending of the film version of "The Firm" was far more ingenious than the uninspired conclusion of the book.

PAD

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#500253 - 09/28/02 02:18 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
heckboy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/06/99
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally posted by jollyman:
Thats almost as weird as that wacky British version of the Avengers.

Y'know the one where Jarvis in a bowler was the main character and the Wasp without any powers was his sidekick, except they had different names, and no other Avengers where part of the show?


LOL
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#500254 - 09/28/02 02:31 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
heckboy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/06/99
Posts: 395
You know, I don't really care what details they change from the original comic if the filmmakers simply "get it." I think the "Smallville" people get it, the committee who put together this script clearly don't. X-Men worked better than Batman & Robin for this very reason. Counting changes from the comic is a silly excercise and won't get you anywhere.

Why Hollywood buys the rights to a hero and then tosses everything except the name is the 8th wonder of the world.
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#500255 - 09/28/02 02:46 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Eel O'Brian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 3080
Loc: North Kackalackee
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter David:


And vastly improved, in my opinion. That's something else people never discuss: Sometimes the movie versions *are* demonstrably better. The ending of the film version of "The Firm" was far more ingenious than the uninspired conclusion of the book.

PAD


Oh, I agree. To use the example of Jaws again - the novel was a somewhat boring Soap Opera which left nary a mark on my memory, and has one of the most anticlimactic endings I've ever read. The movie, I can watch endlessly. As can anyone else who gets The Superstation on cable.

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#500256 - 09/28/02 03:18 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
kingtut Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 1349
Loc: CS, CO
I think a huge part of a comic movie is that the makers of the movie are fans of the comics.

Ang Lee is a huge Hulk fan, as with Sam Raimi and Spider-Man. And even though Brian Singer said he wasnt a manic fan of the comic, the producers he was surrounded with were huge X-Men fans.

Some of the scenes from Superman sound awesome, the mountain scene, some of the fight scenes.

Some look horrible, the costume coming out of the box, kung fu matrix fighting.

I think Avi Arad is a huge part of Marvel's success with the movies.
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#500257 - 09/28/02 04:02 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
gwalla Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 486
Loc: Berkeley, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter David:
And vastly improved, in my opinion. That's something else people never discuss: Sometimes the movie versions *are* demonstrably better. The ending of the film version of "The Firm" was far more ingenious than the uninspired conclusion of the book.


Of course, when you're adapting from Grisham, that isn't hard...
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#500258 - 09/28/02 04:18 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Chemo Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 210
Quote:
Originally posted by WADE:

8.)Apparently Jimmy Olsen is gay......for no reason


They say Jon Peters, after seeing CHASING AMY and STAR WARS SPECIAL EDITION, wanted to incorporate a gay robot into a film, possibly the Burton Superman. Maybe it'll turn out that Jimmy Olsen is actually a Kryptonian android sent by Jor-El to keep watch over Kal-El.

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#500259 - 09/28/02 07:43 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Graeme McMillan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 976
Loc: San Francisco, CA
*hitting my head against the wall*

THE SCRIPT THAT WAS LEAKED WAS FAKE.

Not only was this pretty obvious from day one - the leaked script had TOO many divergences from the classic set-up that everyone knows, no matter what version (Krypton exploding, Lex Luthor being your basic - albeit sometimes genius, sometimes not - human being), something that WB would never let through for fear of killing a possible franchise before it had even got started - but there are now plenty rumours floating around that the script was deliberately leaked by WB to get people talking about the project in the first place, just before it got officially announced, and the writer starts giving interviews where he says things like "Oh, Luthor's definitely going to be human" like he does in the new Aint It Cool News interview...

It was just something to start the hype by getting fanboys' knickers in twists... and it worked perfectly.
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#500260 - 09/28/02 09:57 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by Smile:
*hitting my head against the wall*

THE SCRIPT THAT WAS LEAKED WAS FAKE.

Not only was this pretty obvious from day one
Abrams pretty much admitted to writing the script that Moriarty got ahold of.

But you think that a purposefully bad script was written and then released? And that this is some masterful plot?

Now THAT'S entertainment!

Nah. You give someone a whole lot of credit.

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#500261 - 09/28/02 10:07 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Eel O'Brian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 3080
Loc: North Kackalackee
Walt -

In this day and age of studios not making a move without a million different types of focus groups and polls, I really wouldn't put it past a studio to 'leak' a 'script' packed with every off-the-wall idea possible, to gauge the different reactions.

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#500262 - 09/29/02 03:45 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Vox Sapien Offline
Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 52
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Scout6

My suggestions for Superman 5:

Superman foils another crime operated by corrput businessman Lex Luthor. Luthor's pissed, putting a warrant out for Superman. Many thugs get their butts kicked. Lois wants to marry Clark/Supes, but "responsibility" hold the Boy Scout back, plus she would be in danger. Brainiac gets the warrant, after arriving on Earth. He sics Doomsday on Supes and win. Earth mourns. Heroes fights against Doomsday and are beaten up badly. Batman invents a Clark Kent robot as a cover. Lois gets kidnapped by Luthor's thugs. Brainiac double crosses Luthor after being buds. He wants the whole world. Superman's spirit on a higher existence plane, talks to Jor-El and Lara. They tell him about Brainiac. Superman goes to the yellow sun, comes out reborn. Fights Doomsday and Brainiac and wins. Luthor gets slugged by Batman. Clark and Lois get married.


There shouldn`t be other super-heroes in any super-hero films in my opinion.
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#500263 - 09/29/02 08:06 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Smile:
*hitting my head against the wall*

THE SCRIPT THAT WAS LEAKED WAS FAKE.



Heh.

PAD

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#500264 - 09/29/02 09:19 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Elayne Riggs Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/99
Posts: 2983
Loc: Bronx, NY, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Walt Stone:
But you think that a purposefully bad script was written and then released? And that this is some masterful plot?

Now THAT'S entertainment!

Nah. You give someone a whole lot of credit.


I agree with him. I'm sure this isn't the first time Hollywood has floated a fake trial balloon on purpose. That so many people believe otherwise doesn't speak to Hollywood's cleverness or credit as much as it does to the relative naivete of many online fans.

- Elayne
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#500265 - 09/29/02 10:47 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Stygian Starbender Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 108
Loc: Stygian home world, Shi'Ar gal...
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter David:


And vastly improved, in my opinion. That's something else people never discuss: Sometimes the movie versions *are* demonstrably better. The ending of the film version of "The Firm" was far more ingenious than the uninspired conclusion of the book.

PAD


True, but changing one or two aspects of a script are one thing, but to re-write the whole book is another. If you change EVERYTHING about a character, it ceases to be the character that it originally was.

Let's say a screenplay writer pens a story about a hard-drinking, foul-mouthed cyborg detective, living in a future post-apocalyptic London, who delves into mysterious crimes with his robot companion named "Watts", and after solving the mystery, the cyborg detective blows off the head the offender with a laser-blaster in his cybernetic right arm, and the writer names the character "Sherlock Holmes".

Now does the fact that he lives in London, and he "solves" mysteries make him Arthur Conan Doyle's, 'Sherlock Holmes'..? In my opinion, this writer simply wanted to write a story about a Mad Max/Judge Dread rip-off, and then decided to plaster the name 'Sherlock Holmes' on him.

There's a point to where "tweaking" a character ends, and you begin to completely change the character into someone else. This (awful) Superman script changes too many fundemental aspects about the Superman mythos, up to the point where it's not 'Superman' anymore.

If people want to treat this as a 'Elseworlds' or 'What If' type of story, that's fine, but the problem with that is the vast majority of the moviegoing audience is not familiar with Elseworlds stories. They only know Superman from the earlier movies and TV shows, and they will be leaving the movie theater scratching their heads trying to figure out why Superman was changed so drastically for really no good reason.

(Alex Clarke)
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#500266 - 09/29/02 11:55 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by Eel O'Brian:
In this day and age of studios not making a move without a million different types of focus groups and polls, I really wouldn't put it past a studio to 'leak' a 'script' packed with every off-the-wall idea possible, to gauge the different reactions.
I'd love to believe that as well. But I keep hearing stories about how screwed up the franchise was over the Superman v Batman movie. I cannot believe that these same screw ups that looked all the world like "the gang that couldn't shoot straight" with Supes v Bats turned into such masterful geniuses overnight with Superman 5 (or whatever it's being called now).

To top it off, some script (which one was it?) knocked Supes v Bats into the dumper. If it was the "first draft" then all of the logic behind "let's float a trial balloon script" goes out the window. If it was the "second draft" and WB only saw that, then you're saying that someone came up with a "first draft" in order to get attention? The folks at WB would never presume to ask for that, so someone at JJAbrams Central would to have ponied up for that. No, that logic fails for me, too.

So the only logic that still works for me is that JJAbrams sold WB on the first draft, that heinous piece of crap (um, as described to me, where Abrams himself admits is flawed) and someone at WB released it because of some of the obvious pieces of tripe that were in it. That the first draft WAS just that, and that Abrams was finishing up the second when all of this crap hit the fan. That the script was changed prior to the release... that I'll buy. That the script was released to get attention... THAT I'll buy, but I think it was released not by the officials in the WB/Abrams camp, but by Superman fans or rival producers who want to scuttle the movie in favor of a non-origin story.

And lastly on this... Personal opinion and gut feeling here...

Even if I'm wrong, and this was some masterful stroke, I have to stand up and applaud. Hell, there's a part of me that enjoys this, this... being played by the studios.

It shows that WB/Abrams (whomever did this) is not adverse to taking some risks, etc. (Something we haven't see come from WB... this is why it's so hard to believe)

But I still feel that (these series of events)
comprises a dynamic that will have its own energy for some time. It has polarized more than a few folks.

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#500267 - 09/29/02 12:00 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by Stygian Starbender:
They only know Superman from the earlier movies and TV shows, and they will be leaving the movie theater scratching their heads trying to figure out why Superman was changed so drastically for really no good reason.
If Krypton doesn't explode, and there's some giant civil war going on, why, I can see about 20 different "Krypton tank/ Krypton Battle Unit/ Krypton rogue fighter Action Figure" items going on sale in about a year or so.

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#500268 - 09/29/02 01:32 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Graeme McMillan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 976
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter David:
And vastly improved, in my opinion. That's something else people never discuss: Sometimes the movie versions *are* demonstrably better. The ending of the film version of "The Firm" was far more ingenious than the uninspired conclusion of the book.


Have you read William Goldman's "Which Lie Did I Tell?", PAD? There's a great chapter in there about what happened when he was adapting a novel into what turned into a Clint Eastwood vehicle... something that necessitated the rewriting of the entire plot (I think the movie was "Absolute Power", but I can't remember the name...). Sounds like something you'd enjoy, if you haven't already.
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#500269 - 09/29/02 01:53 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
kingtut Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 1349
Loc: CS, CO
Quote:
Originally posted by Stygian Starbender:


Let's say a screenplay writer pens a story about a hard-drinking, foul-mouthed cyborg detective, living in a future post-apocalyptic London, who delves into mysterious crimes with his robot companion named "Watts", and after solving the mystery, the cyborg detective blows off the head the offender with a laser-blaster in his cybernetic right arm, and the writer names the character "Sherlock Holmes".

(Alex Clarke)


You just described the premise for the cartoon "Sherlock Holmmes in the 22nd Century"(im not joking) that used to be on Fox. Hopefully you havent seen it and its just a weird coincidence.
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#500270 - 09/29/02 02:20 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
I'm sure this isn't the first time Hollywood has floated a fake trial balloon on purpose.
So, I would like to add one thing on this: If this "trial balloon" results in the firings of anyone at WB AND/OR the NONmaking of any JJAbrams script into the next Superman movie, it means that the script wasn't a "trial balloon" and the release wasn't for a good publicity stunt.

Would you agree?

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#500271 - 09/29/02 05:56 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Elayne Riggs Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/99
Posts: 2983
Loc: Bronx, NY, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Walt Stone:
So, I would like to add one thing on this: If this "trial balloon" results in the firings of anyone at WB AND/OR the NONmaking of any JJAbrams script into the next Superman movie, it means that the script wasn't a "trial balloon" and the release wasn't for a good publicity stunt.

Would you agree?


Absolutely not. You can't link a firing in Hollywood to something like this. People get fired and scripts get remade all the time.

- Elayne
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"Life is truly normal only when people feel safe enough to critique, defend, and analyze art and popular culture." - Lisa Schwarzbaum
Click here for my blog, Pen-Elayne on the Web
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#500272 - 09/29/02 06:13 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
People get fired and scripts get remade all the time.
And any firings or remaking of the script on this movie can now, rightly or wrongly, be attached to this trial balloon.

And if the movie fails, they will still have the opportunity to blame it on bad internet press.

Hmm... never thought about it that way!

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#500273 - 09/29/02 06:35 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Jimbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 2751
Loc: New Zealand/Canada
There is a petition you can sign that is trying to stop this oh so bad movie travisty from ever reaching film.

I sure as hell won't see it if they keep with this script, what kind of...argh don't get me started.

Anyway, go to the following link and sign! (I'm not even a superman fan, but we can't let them get away with this CRAP.)

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/sprmn5/

Also, get everyone you know to sign this aswell.
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#500274 - 09/29/02 09:58 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Todd D Frye Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 125
Loc: harrogate tn
Well, if it were the Bush administration who had 'leaked' the script, then we would KNOW it was definitely fake.

Todd "Regime Change" Frye
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#500275 - 09/30/02 08:58 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Elayne Riggs Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/99
Posts: 2983
Loc: Bronx, NY, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Walt Stone:
And any firings or remaking of the script on this movie can now, rightly or wrongly, be attached to this trial balloon.


Can and will, by people not aware of how this kind of thing happens all the time anyway. But perception isn't always reality.

- Elayne
_________________________
"Life is truly normal only when people feel safe enough to critique, defend, and analyze art and popular culture." - Lisa Schwarzbaum
Click here for my blog, Pen-Elayne on the Web
Click here for Robin Riggs' latest interview

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#500276 - 09/30/02 09:40 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dan Carroll Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by Stygian Starbender:
Let's say a screenplay writer pens a story about a hard-drinking, foul-mouthed cyborg detective, living in a future post-apocalyptic London, who delves into mysterious crimes with his robot companion named "Watts", and after solving the mystery, the cyborg detective blows off the head the offender with a laser-blaster in his cybernetic right arm, and the writer names the character "Sherlock Holmes".


I would see this movie in a second, provided the cyborg's name was S.H.E.R.L.O.C.K., or maybe Holmes-1.

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#500277 - 09/30/02 01:23 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Scout99 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 1223
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Sapien:
Posted by Scout99

My suggestions for Superman 5:

Superman foils another crime operated by corrput businessman Lex Luthor. Luthor's pissed, putting a warrant out for Superman. Many thugs get their butts kicked. Lois wants to marry Clark/Supes, but "responsibility" hold the Boy Scout back, plus she would be in danger. Brainiac gets the warrant, after arriving on Earth. He sics Doomsday on Supes and win. Earth mourns. Heroes fights against Doomsday and are beaten up badly. Batman invents a Clark Kent robot as a cover. Lois gets kidnapped by Luthor's thugs. Brainiac double crosses Luthor after being buds. He wants the whole world. Superman's spirit on a higher existence plane, talks to Jor-El and Lara. They tell him about Brainiac. Superman goes to the yellow sun, comes out reborn. Fights Doomsday and Brainiac and wins. Luthor gets slugged by Batman. Clark and Lois get married.


There shouldn`t be other super-heroes in any super-hero films in my opinion.


Why not? It makes it a little more interesting. Besides, there's no copyright troubles since the WB studios own DC Comics?

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#500278 - 09/30/02 01:44 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Shoegaze99 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Eel O'Brian:
Oh, I agree. To use the example of Jaws again - the novel was a somewhat boring Soap Opera which left nary a mark on my memory, and has one of the most anticlimactic endings I've ever read. The movie, I can watch endlessly.


In my mind, the definitive "film surpasses the book" example will always be "The Godfather," which is not only a far and away better piece of work than the book upon which it's based, but is one of the greatest films ever made.

It can happen. It's rare, due in no small part to media differences, but it can happen.
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#500279 - 09/30/02 01:51 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Shoegaze99 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo:
There is a petition you can sign that is trying to stop this oh so bad movie travisty from ever reaching film.


Not to get in the way of your protesting fun
or anything, but I just want to point out that Petition Online and all petitions associated with it are an utter waste of time if you actually intend to have your message taken seriously.

Anybody can put up any petition about anything at all without any filtering - I'm sure others saw the flap over the troll petition asking the name of the next Lord of the Rings film to be changed because Tolkien was insensitive in naming the book after the World Trade Center, for instance - and it has never been shown in any capacity that the petitions have ever done anything other than provide message board discussion fodder.

By all means, sign away. Just understand that Petition Online has yet to reach a level of credibility where one's signature means anything at all or carries any degree weight and convincing power.
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#500280 - 09/30/02 03:49 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Sock Puppet #9.5 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 523
Quote:
Originally posted by Shoegaze99:
Just understand that Petition Online has yet to reach a level of credibility where one's signature means anything at all or carries any degree weight and convincing power.
wow!

Just like voting in the Florida elections!

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#500281 - 10/01/02 12:05 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Peter David Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 855
Loc: NY, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Stygian Starbender:


True, but changing one or two aspects of a script are one thing, but to re-write the whole book is another. If you change EVERYTHING about a character, it ceases to be the character that it originally was.

Let's say a screenplay writer pens a story about a hard-drinking, foul-mouthed cyborg detective, living in a future post-apocalyptic London, who delves into mysterious crimes with his robot companion named "Watts", and after solving the mystery, the cyborg detective blows off the head the offender with a laser-blaster in his cybernetic right arm, and the writer names the character "Sherlock Holmes".

Now does the fact that he lives in London, and he "solves" mysteries make him Arthur Conan Doyle's, 'Sherlock Holmes'..? In my opinion, this writer simply wanted to write a story about a Mad Max/Judge Dread rip-off, and then decided to plaster the name 'Sherlock Holmes' on him.


I wouldn't disagree with that. But you're missing my point, and I'll use your own example to prove it:

Can you see Hollywood producing a film called "SHERLOCK HOLMES 2050" and doing *exactly* what you described? Because I sure can. Easily.

See, *my* point is that Hollywood messing with Superman would just be business as usual, and it's a waste for fans to get worked up about it because Superman may be invulnerable to many things, but Hollywood overhaul is not one of them.

PAD

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#500282 - 10/01/02 02:06 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
shendricks Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/01
Posts: 231
Loc: Rockville, MD, USA
Did you hear that Radner is planning to star Jackie Chan as Superman and Chris Tucker as Lex Luthor? Could be fun. wink

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#500283 - 10/01/02 06:57 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Jeff Lane Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5
Loc: Evansville, IN
My thinking with The Ultimates/Hollywood comparison is, when you walk into a comic shop, you have a choice to go with the Ultimate line, or stay with the regular Marvel Universe. Comic fans know the difference.

Now, the general public that wants to see the Superman movie only gets what this script says. It portrays Superman vastly different to the mainstream public than he is in the comics, even with his many changes from '38 till now.

We know that it's just Hollywood messing things up as usual, but for the movie goer who remembers the Donner film, they know that Krypton blew up. Now they see this, and what would they think? I guess only time will tell.
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www.JeffLane.net

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#500284 - 10/01/02 10:25 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Elayne Riggs Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/99
Posts: 2983
Loc: Bronx, NY, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter David:
Can you see Hollywood producing a film called "SHERLOCK HOLMES 2050" and doing *exactly* what you described? Because I sure can. Easily.


I find myself unable to raise any sort of voice of protest against the upcoming Treasure Planet, whether or not it leaves Robert Louis Stevenson spinning in his grave. I'm actually looking forward to it. I can certainly see the same reaction to Eel's hypothetical example. Heck, Alan Moore updates icons all the time (his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen being the latest example) and receives praise, not condemnation. There will always be some folks who like this sort of icon-malleability and other folks who think it's blasphemy.

- Elayne
_________________________
"Life is truly normal only when people feel safe enough to critique, defend, and analyze art and popular culture." - Lisa Schwarzbaum
Click here for my blog, Pen-Elayne on the Web
Click here for Robin Riggs' latest interview

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#500285 - 10/01/02 11:35 AM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Eel O'Brian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 3080
Loc: North Kackalackee
Quote:
Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


I find myself unable to raise any sort of voice of protest against the upcoming Treasure Planet, whether or not it leaves Robert Louis Stevenson spinning in his grave. I'm actually looking forward to it. I can certainly see the same reaction to Eel's hypothetical example. Heck, Alan Moore updates icons all the time (his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen being the latest example) and receives praise, not condemnation. There will always be some folks who like this sort of icon-malleability and other folks who think it's blasphemy.

- Elayne


That wasn't me, that was Stygian Starbender.

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#500286 - 10/01/02 12:15 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Stygian Starbender Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 108
Loc: Stygian home world, Shi'Ar gal...
Quote:
Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


I find myself unable to raise any sort of voice of protest against the upcoming Treasure Planet, whether or not it leaves Robert Louis Stevenson spinning in his grave. I'm actually looking forward to it. I can certainly see the same reaction to Eel's hypothetical example. Heck, Alan Moore updates icons all the time (his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen being the latest example) and receives praise, not condemnation. There will always be some folks who like this sort of icon-malleability and other folks who think it's blasphemy.

- Elayne


True, but Alan Moore is a damn good writer. And even in his re-imagining of characters, he tends to keep the "heart & soul" of the character intact. Just re-read his 'Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?' and you'll see what I mean.

I'm sorry, but that Superman script by Abrams & Peters reads like an astoundingly crap-tacular epic. Let Moore write it! Let PAD write it! Anything they come up with would be 1,000 times better than that.

(Alex Clarke)
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#500287 - 10/01/02 12:44 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Steve Hogan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 5099
Loc: Burlington, VT 05401
The script is legit, though likely to be rewritten heavily.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=13404
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#500288 - 10/01/02 01:17 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Quote:
Originally posted by Stygian Starbender:
I'm sorry, but that Superman script by Abrams & Peters reads like an astoundingly crap-tacular epic. Let Moore write it! Let PAD write it! Anything they come up with would be 1,000 times better than that.
When Abrams' title character in Felicity cut her hair in real life, it damn near killed the series right there. Small changes can hurt.

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#500289 - 10/01/02 04:18 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Sock Puppet #9.5 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 523
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hogan:
The script is legit, though likely to be rewritten heavily. http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=13404
Sock Puppet #9.5's Script revision suggestion:
- Jimmy Olsen no longer gay. But Lois Lane now is!

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#500290 - 10/01/02 09:02 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Dave Miller Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Lane:
My thinking with The Ultimates/Hollywood comparison is, when you walk into a comic shop, you have a choice to go with the Ultimate line, or stay with the regular Marvel Universe. Comic fans know the difference.

Now, the general public that wants to see the Superman movie only gets what this script says. It portrays Superman vastly different to the mainstream public than he is in the comics, even with his many changes from '38 till now.

We know that it's just Hollywood messing things up as usual, but for the movie goer who remembers the Donner film, they know that Krypton blew up. Now they see this, and what would they think? I guess only time will tell.


Even if the continuity of the comics is different from the continuity of the film, as far as Warners is concerned, the comic books are just another piece of merchandise, maybe more of a cash cow than a keychain, but less of a money-maker than a movie. They'll make whatever movie they think will bring in the most money.

There are many differences between the average comic book fan and the average filmgoer. For example, the average filmgoer could give a shit about series continuity. The Donner film came out 25 years ago; anyone with a shred of common sense will realize the new film is a separate entity, and will most likely be amused and titillated by the changes, if they even stop to think about them.
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#500291 - 10/05/02 02:09 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
RCRUZ Offline
Member

Registered: 09/03/99
Posts: 283
Loc: Guaynabo, P.R.
Re: It's the nipples, stupid!

We can all agree that when something from one medium gets adapted to another -- changes occur.

Fine. Everybody knows that.

But we should also agree that when the changes (be they cosmetic or significant plot points) are featured and take center stage to the degree that they become MORE important than the material that provided the inspiration to make the adaption in the first place -- we have a problem.

Superman is an icon that has sixty - plus years of changes in its character in just the comics ALONE.

People with more time on their hands than I have tracked and catalogued them. MORE power to them (BTW) and thanks for the reference material. Some are minute, some contradict flat out!

Again, that's history. Fine.

It astounds me that with the risks, the potential cost and the potential loss facing those that make feature films, TPTB would still go ahead and piss off a fan base -- whose word of mouth CAN do a lot of harm -- and make a movie to "prove a point".

I got just some "choice" titles for those those arrogant SOBs: "Batman and Robin", Superman III, Superman IV: The Quest for Peace.

And to them I say: Go for it!

Go ahead and fool people to invest money in a movie whose name and "S" symbol may be recognized the world over but is not invulnerable from bombing at the Box Office, especially after some really GOOD movies like "Spider-Man", "Blade".

It's your millions -- not mine.

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#500292 - 10/05/02 05:40 PM Re: "Let's crap on an Icon" or New Superman movie a go!
Walt Stone Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 496
Loc: Katy, Tx
Revisions to characters (or sets of characters) is part of a calculated decision making process that shouldn't be handled by those not adept and experienced.

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