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#500490 - 09/30/02 01:07 PM Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Kevin T. Brown Offline
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Registered: 05/09/02
Posts: 630
Loc: Chicagoland
Obviously, there are many people out there who have various reasons as to why either of these creators deserve to win this court case. And considering it's going to trial today, I figured rather than allow a flame war erupt on the main page, let's address ALL the arguements here. I don't want to get into "so and so should win because I think issue number #! of _______ was their best work ever!" Give a reason why you think they should win and have the facts to back them up! Simple enough, no? smile

With that said, here's mine: Gaiman was stupid for working without a contract. Relying on essentially a handshake deal, he probably deserves what he gets. However, considering the fact that he has damaging evidence by way of these faxes, he should win. He got lucky. Otherwise, I feel, the court system would have laughed him out of this suit. Obviously, there's probably a ton more evidence to back up his claims, but that is the biggest bullet in his barrel, and MacFarlane will more than likely lose. Odds are, there'll be a settlement before this is done, unless the egos are just too huge to contend with....

These are my opinions. Agree, disagree, whatever. I'm just curious as to what others think.
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#500491 - 09/30/02 01:17 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by KTB:
Otherwise, I feel, the court system would have laughed him out of this suit.


Not necessarily. The faxes strengthen his claim, but a number of McFarlane interviews from the time imply a verbal contract between him and Gaiman. They don't name specifics, but do make clear that Gaiman will own the copyrights to the characters.

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#500492 - 09/30/02 01:19 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Kommando XXX Offline
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Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 195
Quote:
Originally posted by KTB:

With that said, here's mine: Gaiman was stupid for working without a contract. Relying on essentially a handshake deal, he probably deserves what he gets.


You might have given a good arguement...

...if it weren't for the fact that Todd McFarlane paraded (actually, paraded is too light a word for this) himself around as the champion of creator's rights when Image was formed. Hell, look at his interview in HERO ILLUSTRATED #3: He said that he was going to do the crossover with Neal Adams' VALERIA THE SHE-BAT because he felt that he owed Neal for fighting for creator's rights years ago.

Of course, that crossover never materialized, because McFarlane felt that he didn't want to overexpose Spawn before the SPAWN/BATMAN crossover.
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#500493 - 09/30/02 01:24 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Shoegaze99 Offline
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not Applicable, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by KTB:
Gaiman was stupid for working without a contract. Relying on essentially a handshake deal, he probably deserves what he gets.


In the United States, a so-called handshake agreement/deal/contract is considered legally binding under the law. In theory, all Gaiman would need to do is prove that the agreement, even if only a verbal agreement, was in place. Sure, it would have been smarter of Gaiman to be less trusting of a guy who at one time claimed to be Mr. Creator's Rights, but that doesn't necessarily mean he lacks a solid legal leg to stand on.
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#500494 - 09/30/02 01:26 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Kommando XXX Offline
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Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 195
Also, if (as the Pulse's article claims) Gaiman, Alan Moore, Dave Sim, and Frank Miller were working on the book without a contract, then how do you explain the absence of #10 in the second SPAWN TPB? Remember, it was the Spawn/Cerebus crossover.
_________________________
"I admit you were right. But just this once."--Samuel Catalino to Otto Chelman, 11/20/2030

"You have corrected me. I am humbled."--Otto Chelman to Samuel Catalino, 5/12/2038

"I still think you're mostly wrong."----Samuel Catalino 2.0 trying to prove Otto Chelman cyborg wrong yet again, 3/30/2050

"That was not a well-thought out comment."--Otto Chelman 6.0 trying to prove Samuel Catalino MACH 3X wrong yet again, 8/23/2078

"Are you two done yet?"--Rick Veitch's moderating great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandtwins, to Ultra Computron 9.0-X harboring the dueling personalities of Otto and Samuel, Stardate 1329.8.

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#500495 - 09/30/02 01:31 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Dan Carroll Offline
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
No... he was working without a contract. But issue 10 blatantly had a character copyrighted to someone else in it. He couldn't just use it without permission. (Not even by "ah, who's gonna prove it?" standards.)

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#500496 - 09/30/02 01:41 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
James Van Hise Offline
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Registered: 02/14/02
Posts: 265
Loc: Yucca Valley, CA
Although its rightly said that the rights to Miracleman/Marvelman are a tangle, what isn't a tangle is that Eclipse never owned any sort of rights that McFarlane could have bought. Eclipse just licensed the character, and according to information in KIMOTA (the Miracleman Companion), Eclipse got behind in payments are were publishing material they hadn't paid to use. All McFarlane bought was the film (including for the final, unpublished issue), but neither he nor anyone else could publish any of that without getting a lecense to do so. Because Alan Moore signed over his ownership share to Neil, Gaiman is the majority owner of Miracleman at this point (though not the sole owner).--JVH
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#500497 - 09/30/02 01:41 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Kevin T. Brown Offline
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Registered: 05/09/02
Posts: 630
Loc: Chicagoland
Just a quick thanks to all who have posted already! This is what I was hoping to see. I was basing my opions on what I knew about the case. Ovbiously, I did not have all the facts nor was I assuming I did. I was merely basing my opinion on what little I had read about the case previously. I knew full well there would be quite a number out there who had more info than I had at hand.

I'm looking forward to more posts of a similar and reasonable type too! Thanks again!
_________________________
The floggings will continue until morale improves. ~ anonymous

Why can't people with closed minds come with closed mouths?

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

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#500498 - 09/30/02 01:43 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Tim Gagne Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 433
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
NO matter what people think about the industry, there was at one time a tremedous amount of trust and faith between creators and publishers. Of course this wound up badly pretty much every time, cause when push came to shove it was all about money.

As great as it would be to see all of the Miracle Man storyline collected and reprinted for those who missed it, I'm not so sure bringing him back does anything for the character. Sometimes you just have to let it go. And let's not forget there are a lot of hands that went into making the soup it now is, all the way back to Marvelman's original creator.

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#500499 - 09/30/02 02:16 PM Re: Gaiman vs MacFarlane, who should win & why?
Stygian Starbender Offline
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 108
Loc: Stygian home world, Shi'Ar gal...
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Gagne:
NO matter what people think about the industry, there was at one time a tremedous amount of trust and faith between creators and publishers. Of course this wound up badly pretty much every time, cause when push came to shove it was all about money.

As great as it would be to see all of the Miracle Man storyline collected and reprinted for those who missed it, I'm not so sure bringing him back does anything for the character. Sometimes you just have to let it go. And let's not forget there are a lot of hands that went into making the soup it now is, all the way back to Marvelman's original creator.


I strongly disagree here. A large chunk of the comic reading audience has never seen the MiracleMan material, and it would be a crime for it to be never reprinted.

I'd rather have MM in Gaiman's hands, but if McFarlane manages to pull-off an upset victory, I hope he'll keep the fans of MM in mind as well as the many curious about it, and reprint the series.

(Alex Clarke)
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