That's not what I asked. I asked have you ever looked up the percentage of crimes that were stopped/prevented through the use of a gun as defense. And, as for the 'far more likely' - so what? If two people corner you and tell you they're going to rape and kill you, and one of them is going to hold the gun while the other takes their turn - you're dead, anyway, so you may as well make sure there's two less criminals in the world if you can. If you have a gun in a situation like that, you at least have a CHANCE of survival. Without one, you pretty much just have to lie there and TAKE IT until they kill you.



And I'm sure they were all obtained through legal means, so if new gun control laws were enacted and enforced, they'd be able to pinpoint every single firearm and who it belonged to - instead of just removing them from the homes of those who obtained them legally. Right.

If you have such a problem with guns, move somewhere no one's ever been allowed to have them, and there's no possibility of them ever entering that society. Ask a thug to comply with gun control laws, and he'll laugh in your face, right before he shoots you in it. The guns are already out there, and there's no way possible to remove them from our society without establishing some kind of Police State - and even then you aren't going to get them all, because criminals don't keep sales slips and credit card records of their gun purchases.

If you're being attacked and someone saves your life with a gun, are you going to thank that person, or are you going to give them a lecture on gun control?

The study from which the numbers reflecting this are most often cited, conducted by Dr. Arthur Kellerman, was a flawed study on a number of levels, so much so that Kellerman would not release his data for peer review. His study has been debunked a number of times by a number of groups.

Besides, you somewhat misstate the study's results: It's not that the gun in the home is more likely to be stolen and used against you, it's that the gun was more likely to be used against a household member than a burglar. Those are two different things, as the latter includes suicide, domestic violence, and accidents. (Ignoring, for the moment, the study's alleged flaws, which include poorly chosen and severaly skewed population samples)

In one respect it's a minor quibble - a gun in the home going awry still ends badly - but on the other hand it's an important distinction if you want to discuss the "protection" aspects of gun ownership.

Other studies are this issue are conflicted. Some studies following Kellerman's work seem to back the assertion, though not nearly to the degree he claimed, while others indicate that gun-protection incidents outweigh gun-crime incidents by a large degree. I would submit that most of the studies on either side are suspect for a number of reasons. It's quite easy for a person on either side of the gun debate to trot out scores of numbers to "prove" their point, all of them convincing during the moments they are being read.

Uh, Tom...you've sort of been expressing an opinion here yourself. We're a bunch of comic Nerds. We're all weird, all the time.

Dude, I live in a bad block in a good neighborhood. There is at least one shooting a year on a patch of sidewalk that I walk by every single day of my life.

I don't get how gun ownership protects me. It's against the law to carry a concealed firearm, so I can't go around packing heat -- I kind of have a hard time imagining myself hearing shots, pulling out my piece and engaging in gun battle, personally.

There was actually a rapist on the loose in my nabe. He followed women home and grabbed them as they were getting out their keys. Again, how can I stop that with a gun? Maybe I'm dependent on being careful on my own and a heavily armed POLICE FORCE?

Sure, lawful gun owners can and do stop criminals. I'm sure all the deli owners in my neighborhood have shotguns behind the counter. If i were them, I would to. (One of the shootings mentioned earlier was the owner of MY deli. Shot dead.)

And by the same token, guns are stored carelessly and used by children to kill themselves; lawful guns are grabbed in the heat of passion or drug use and used to kill people, guns are stolen and used on their lawful owners, crazy people buy guns and use them to kill Beatles.


and the rest of the world just shakes their heads at us and our violent society.

Frankly, I've given up. We live in a violent society, fueled by poverty and a frontier ethic that was necessary about a hundred years ago. I'll continue to hope my luck holds out while I walk home.

Originally posted by Heidi MacDonald:
Dude, I live in a bad block in a good neighborhood. There is at least one shooting a year on a patch of sidewalk that I walk by every single day of my life.

That's terrible.

I don't get how gun ownership protects me. It's against the law to carry a concealed firearm

Here in NC, we've recently been allowed to carry concealed weapons, and the crime rate has dropped accordingly. No one wants to rob you if they think you might turn them into a smear on the wall.

, so I can't go around packing heat -- I kind of have a hard time imagining myself hearing shots, pulling out my piece and engaging in gun battle, personally.

Well, that's you. If I were walking somewhere with my family and we were attacked, I'd have no problem producing some holes in the attacker. I'd rather them live with that memory than the memory of family funeral.

There was actually a rapist on the loose in my nabe. He followed women home and grabbed them as they were getting out their keys. Again, how can I stop that with a gun?

Stick your hand inside your purse (where your gun would be if you were allowed to carry one) if you get the chance, and blow a hole through it - and his head.

Maybe I'm dependent on being careful on my own and a heavily armed POLICE FORCE?

Hahahahaha, okay.

Sure, lawful gun owners can and do stop criminals. I'm sure all the deli owners in my neighborhood have shotguns behind the counter. If i were them, I would to. (One of the shootings mentioned earlier was the owner of MY deli. Shot dead.)

I'm sorry to hear that.

And by the same token, guns are stored carelessly and used by children to kill themselves; lawful guns are grabbed in the heat of passion or drug use and used to kill people, guns are stolen and used on their lawful owners, crazy people buy guns and use them to kill Beatles.

And that's terrible, as well. But that's something I'm willing to live with as long as I am guaranteed the right to protect my own.


and the rest of the world just shakes their heads at us and our violent society.

Ah, yes - the Sainted 'Rest Of The World', where no one ever commits violent acts such as strapping bombs to themselves and walking into crowded restaurants, or sentences someone to death for giving birth out of wedlock, or serially murders over a hundred people before they're caught, and Protestants and Catholics don't kill each other with petrol bombs. You're right - they don't really need guns. They're doing a swell job of killing themselves without them.

Frankly, I've given up. We live in a violent society, fueled by poverty and a frontier ethic that was necessary about a hundred years ago. I'll continue to hope my luck holds out while I walk home.

We live in a violent WORLD, Heidi, fueled by something about humanity that will never change - Greed, in all its forms. Greed for land, Greed for religious domination, greed for power, wealth, forever and ever etc.

I really hope you stay safe, too, by the way.

We're not the ones with the monarchy. :p And the...resultant...Princess Di....worship....aw crap.

Justin--U-S-A! U-S-A!

Ditto. There are even a lot of things outside the comics world that I continue to have opinions about even after they've gone away. Nazi Germany. John Lennon. Arafat's failure to accept the year 2000 compromise. I don't think I obsess about any of them, but I continue to hold the opinions, and I seriously doubt that most human beings don't continue to do the same even if said opinions can have no effect on The Way Things Turned Out.

Some individuals do indeed become obsessed, seeking constant validation of their opinions ("Worst... Messageboard... Ever!"). But a lot of it is just, "For such-and-such reasons I don't like Nazi Germany/Yasser Arafat/Gerry Conway's run on Spider-Man." Who judges whether the opinion has become an unhealthy obsession, Tom?

Well, the joke's on me for once. You see, I enjoy reading John Byrne's message board and laughing at the way Rich yanks their chains. But after reading his jaunty little tune about murdered American children, I see what kind of person he is.

Two things:

1.America's "poverty" is far different than the poverty of the rest of the world. America's poor are very, very well-to-do when compared to that of truly poor nations. Our poorest would be doing pretty well elsewhere and, in the grand scheme of things, don't have it that bad.

2.Some studies indicate that once the gun numbers are removed from the equation, America's level of violence is roughly equivilant to that of comparable nations of the world.

We're chock full o' faults as a nation, but poverty is not one of them, and outside of guns, violence defines our society to no greater extent than it does any other comparable nation (with exceptions).

Hm, well, thanks for proving my point.