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#504477 - 12/23/02 10:00 PM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
NicholasWyche Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 405
Loc: Memphis, TN, USA
I'm not sure what to make of yo's post above, but allow me to clarify my first post:

I should have said that it terrifies me how much members of the American Public allow their own opinions on political matters to be shaped by the opinions of celebrities. They seem to project upon celebrities some kind of super-credibility based upon nothing more than the fact that they are famous.

Having said that, disagree with the government all you want. If you don't like the war speak up about it. I for one support it fully and wish we would stop pussy-footing around waiting for some kind of global approval and just do what needs to be done.
I think blood for oil is a sad, but necessary fact of life in the 21st century. I know this makes me seem heartless and cruel and like I don't value human life. I do value human life, I just realize that nations are not individuals and cannot act as if they are. Nations, also, cannot interact with other nations in the same manner in which they guarantee to interact with their citizenry. To expect otherwise, IMO, is extremely naive.
I feel extremely bad for those innocents who have and will lose their lives, but threats to our nation/way of life are not something I feel we should back down from. I am a hawk and I know that. Others disagree with me and I respect that. That's the neat thing about this country and why I think it needs to be defended at almost any cost.

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#504478 - 12/24/02 06:02 AM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
Wil Radcliffe Offline
Member

Registered: 01/20/02
Posts: 486
Loc: Fremont, IN
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Awesome:
Secondly (Oh we're in full-on rant right now), it seems they're being a bit hypocritical, anyway. I mean, don't WE have weapons of mass destruction? Doesn't Britain? Or India? Or France?


I'm certainly no expert on world events, but I believe the problem isn't that Iraq may be developing weapons of mass destruction, so much as such activities are in violation of the treaty that ended the first Gulf War. At least that's the way I understand it. But I could be wrong, which I often am.
_________________________
Noggle Stones

"In the tradition of Tolkien and Rowling, Wil carves out his own territory in the fantasy genre with Noggle Stones." ~ Ernie Colon

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#504479 - 12/24/02 07:03 AM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
Brian Jacks Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 638
Loc: NYC
Quote:
Originally posted by ScottChantler:
It is, after all, the first Gulf War that eventually led to September 11th.
Nonsense. The Western vs. Islamic Fundamentalist conflict began in the late 70s. Having troops stationed on Saudi soil may have exasperated the situation for the Islamists, but if it wasn't that it would have been something else.

-Brian
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#504480 - 12/24/02 08:54 AM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
The Cutting Edge Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/23/02
Posts: 4
Loc: The Carolinas
It is my belief that now is a time of reconing for all American citizens. Many Americans are still clueless as to why other countries view the American lifestyle as the "Big Satan" and the answers aren't that hard to contemplate when you really think about it. Recently, several questions have crossed my mind as to why the "War Against Terror" should be regarded as either a good or bad thing with the results weighing heavily on either side depending on which issue is evaluted. By asking myself these questions, I've come to the conclussion that there are no "easy" answers and if the truth be known, it is no one's fault but our own.

#1> Why when we Americans know that there are cheaper, more plentiful, & enviromentally friendly forms of energy that will also create thousands of new American jobs to harvest this energy are we still so reliant on foriegn oil? (Maybe Bush and his fellow Texas politicians can answer that one!)

#2> Why wasn't Saddam and his regieme of terror "dealt with" a decade ago during the first Persian Gulf crisis?

#3> How will a war effect the American economy now that it is so reliant on foriegn consumer dollars thanks to such trade agreements such as NAFTA, etc.?

#4> What will happen to millions more of American jobs when thankless countries such as France and others (who the US has bailed out on so many occassions) decide that they no longer wish to buy American imports?

#5> Why did the American govt. decide to play both sides of the field during the Iraqi / Iran situation back in the 70's & 80's that could be blamed for this entire scenerio we are now faced?

#6> Does anyone still remember the Iran Contra hearings?

#7> Why wasn't Ossama Bin Lauden assasinted years ago seeing as the the UN Resolution of protecting world leaders does not apply to religous fanatics?

#8> Why was the U.S. so intent on keeping a tight leash on Isreal in the past when it is so obvious that, before the issue of bio, chem, and nuclear weapons became a major factor, Isreal could've wiped out governments such as Saddam's years ago?

#9> Other than religous and humanitarian reasons (as the US govt would like us to believe), why did the U.S. even "rebuild" Isreal knowing that it was going to cause so many problems down the road?

#10> Why are the American people still blind to the fact that conservatives are conservative not because they care about morals but because they do not wish to change the way that Corperate America lines their pockets? (Had to throw that one in there! *lol*)
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#504481 - 12/24/02 09:06 AM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
The Cutting Edge Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/23/02
Posts: 4
Loc: The Carolinas
Don't get me wrong. I love America and everything it stands for....wait...USED to stand for, but the simple fact of the matter is that America has strayed from the moral, civil, and humanitarian foundation inwhich is was built upon.

Over the last several decades since WW2, we've allowed greed and power to corrupt our society and now we are paying and are about to pay a very dear price for our transgressions. Let's face it, we are no longer the "good guy" no matter how we look at it and there's no turning back now.

Being raised in a very religous household, I can't help but reflect on my teachings as a child and wonder if that is in fact the direction inwhich the world as a whole is now heading. I guess if there is a more appropriate time to pray, now is it.
_________________________
He who has never loved and lost is truely one lucky sum' bitch!

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#504482 - 12/24/02 03:01 PM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
yo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 433
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Awesome:


Paula Abdul, is that you?

Seriously now.


Seriously you twit don't you know Simon when you here him.

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#504483 - 12/24/02 03:17 PM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
yo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 433
Quote:
Originally posted by NicholasWyche:
I should have said that it terrifies me how much members of the American Public allow their own opinions on political matters to be shaped by the opinions of celebrities. They seem to project upon celebrities some kind of super-credibility based upon nothing more than the fact that they are famous.

Having said that, disagree with the government all you want. If you don't like the war speak up about it. I for one support it fully and wish we would stop pussy-footing around waiting for some kind of global approval and just do what needs to be done.
I think blood for oil is a sad, but necessary fact of life in the 21st century. I know this makes me seem heartless and cruel and like I don't value human life. I do value human life, I just realize that nations are not individuals and cannot act as if they are. Nations, also, cannot interact with other nations in the same manner in which they guarantee to interact with their citizenry. To expect otherwise, IMO, is extremely naive.
.

My rant above was'nt directed personally at your comment's except for the part about why dicount someone's value because of the way they choose to earn a living.I don't know anyone that would change there opinion's based on a comment by frodo but many people feel as he does so it's nice to hear that point of view put out in public forum.Ronald Regan a man who GBJR is trying to mirror with his reign was an actor by trade and I pointed this out because his voice was apparently of value to GBJR as we are feeling regan influence today.The rest of that rant just was a general thing not aimed at you

As for the rest of the above that a Quoted from you this time round....It does'nt seem heartless and cruel,It is.GBSR should have done this job back in 91,12 hours away from removing Saddam [from his interview on the history channel] and he pulled out.It was a mistake and he admited to it.
When we use up Saddam's oil then what?who do we go after then?I know I'm sounding Unamerican by current standard's but I don't like where JR is leading us.
Our biggest foriegn concern right now should be relations with Korea and CHina,IMO and keeping hostile people from hostile countries the hell out of our's.

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#504484 - 12/24/02 06:19 PM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
Jimmy Anger Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/02
Posts: 316
Loc: Winchester, MA, USA
I love charlie rose transcripts.

Quote:
CR: The idea... you object to the comparison of this film with respect to American involvement with Iraq or--

VM: United States government

CR: --with the Afghanistan war or the war against terrorism--in comparison with the film because of your opposition to American policy.

VM: And the idea is--in that comparison--is that the United States is like the good guys in our movie against the bad guys in our movie and I think the opposite is true unfortunately.

CR: We're the bad guys because we responded to--

VM: You know, the people who are terrified at Helms Deep, who are outnumbered in this incredible violence and desire to control--to destroy--the people of Rohan and the rest of the free peoples of Middle-earth, and to control their wills, to control their infrastructure--

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#504485 - 12/27/02 09:04 AM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
ScottChantler Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/00
Posts: 675
Loc: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Nonsense. The Western vs. Islamic Fundamentalist conflict began in the late 70s. Having troops stationed on Saudi soil may have exasperated the situation for the Islamists, but if it wasn't that it would have been something else.


Well, since it was that, and not something else, I stand by my statement.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong. I love America and everything it stands for....wait...USED to stand for, but the simple fact of the matter is that America has strayed from the moral, civil, and humanitarian foundation inwhich is was built upon.


You sound like my mother-in-law, who insists (in all seriousness) that there was no crime until about fifteen years ago.

Sure, different administrations have their quirks, but your government (like all governments) are basically the same, and always have been. America was built on some grand ideals, but if you could go back in time and pick up a newspaper from just about any time in your country's history, I think you'll find it didn't take long for politicians to start perverting those ideals to their own ends...your history is full of things that couldn't possibly be construed as moral, civil, or humaitarian.

But the nation is its people, not its government. And I like to think that Americans do, generally, still believe in those principles.
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Scott Chantler
www.scottchantler.com

"The more wonderful the means of communication, the more trivial, tawdry, or depressing its contents seemed to be."
- Arthur C. Clarke

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#504486 - 12/27/02 09:16 AM Re: Aragorn speaks out on Iraq!
ScottChantler Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/00
Posts: 675
Loc: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Re: Sean Penn

No one said that you have to be a politicain to comment on politics. But let's face it, the only reason Sean Penn or any other actor gets on TV for voicing their opposition (or support) is because they're Hollywood celebrities. My barber has an opinion on Iraq, but I don't see him on the six o'clock news. Is there any indication that Penn is any more informed than the rest?

Let's face it...political insiders are privy to information that might be hidden from the rest of us. That's why we elect them to make decisions on our behalf. Some people play the piano, some people have a head for the game we call politics. We wouldn't expect Colin Powell to able to do a scene from Hamlet, so why on Earth would we expect Sean Penn to be able to work out any of the US's complex foreign relations problems?

Don't get me wrong, Sean Penn and any other actor are free to comment publicly on whatever they want, and I'm sure there's a certain contingent of the publuc who'll lap it up. The rest of us, though, are also free to mock said celebrities whenever they appear.

Personally, I've chosen to take the stances taken by Penn--who, as I've said, I once mistook for a homeless person--and Viggo "if anyone's going to use this film to comment on politics, it's going to be ME" Mortensen with a grain of salt.
_________________________
Scott Chantler
www.scottchantler.com

"The more wonderful the means of communication, the more trivial, tawdry, or depressing its contents seemed to be."
- Arthur C. Clarke

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