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#505306 - 12/20/02 10:52 AM Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
There was a thread discussing, among other things, the differences between people who post over at The Comics Journal website's message boards and those that post here, at Comicon. I think that this kind of rivalry is silly, really. What is to be said of those that post to both, for instance? We are all comics fans, regardless of what genre we choose to read.

It's almost as if for many a lifetime of being chided for reading comic books from peers and others have trained certain factions to become the abusers, themselves, and chide those that also read comic books, just not the kind that they enjoy, themselves.

The ultimate expression of this, the most disturbing example of "Us Vs. Them" seems to be the comments that Gary Groth said about Carol Kalish.

Peter David writes about it on his site, which you can read about at the link below:

PETER DAVID

(The above is a link to Peter David's web site and his column regarding what Gary Groth has said about Carol Kalish)

I'm sorry, but trying to be objective about this, it seems that most of the time the attacks and taunts are initiated by the "Indy" or "Alternative" crowds. It seems that Comicon is considered more "mainstream" than TCJ. So what? If true, really, why does it matter? And why insult or outright attack a woman because she worked for "The Enemy." --- And why is a company the enemy for being a mainstream (i.e., "successful") company? Oh, sure, I have issues with the management of the same company over business issues, but I do not consider that company the "enemy" and I never have.

Groth's company published a "Spice Girls" comic. Does that make him the enemy to himself? At the time it was published, you couldn't get more mainstream than the Spice Girls. Having Peter Bagge illustrate the comic doesn't negate that.

Is there other issues at hand? I don't mean the old tired saw about how superhero comics are strangling the industry. Really, that's played. It's not as if other companies are prevented from publishing their own kind of comics, and it's not like Marvel and DC's success prevents the other company's success. To suggest that is a cop-out. A refusal to face the reality that their comic will not appeal to the same amount of people as a Spider-Man comic. And, if it did, wouldn't the company be required to bash itself, as it would then be "mainstream"? Silly.

Is it simply elitism? Snobby pretentious posturing? Really, I want to know.

I want to know why it is considered okay to knock a dead woman because she worked for a publisher of mainstream comics.
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"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

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#505307 - 12/20/02 11:48 AM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Hawes:
Is it simply elitism? Snobby pretentious posturing? Really, I want to know.


Well, a post by Deppy MIGHT answer that question.

"I get email from the occasional mainstream media-type who reads this board to see what the smarter comics fans are up to."

I'm not sure if the assessment of people who hang out at TCJ as "smarter comics fans" belongs to him or the "mainstream media types" from whom he gets emails. Here's a link to the thread.

http://www.tcj.com/messboard/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004007-8.html
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#505308 - 12/20/02 11:49 AM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
redrocketred Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 67
Loc: San Francisco, California, Uni...
Well said Peter David. We're all in this silly boat together. It's bad enough that growing up some of us had to either hide our passion for comic books or got stereotyped as a comic book geek. You don't need a man who publishes comic books to look down on you for reading "the wrong comics." If the comics he champions are as good as they are then they should be flying off the shelves. He should be doing more to get these books and stories into our hands instead of labeling other members of his community, the comic book community. I actually think that Groth is the ultimate nerd. How seriously can you take a man who goes to war over funny pictures drawn on a piece of paper?
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#505309 - 12/20/02 12:07 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by redrocketred:
Well said Peter David. We're all in this silly boat together...


I just thought I'd clarify this: I posted a link to Peter David's site, but I do not quote from him in the post above. I'm sorry if that was unclear (I'll see if I can edit it to make it right).

Peter's column on his site discusses the things Gary Groth has said about Carol Kalish since her untimely death.

I'm glad to see you agree with the sentiments in my post, redrocketred! Thanks!
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"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

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#505310 - 12/20/02 12:14 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
snoid Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/99
Posts: 2205
Quote:
Originally posted by redrocketred:
[QB How seriously can you take a man who goes to war over funny pictures drawn on a piece of paper?[/QB]



or as crumb said..it's only lines on paper. that said when you invest your whole life into something, like Gary has you tend to take it very seriously. I think the main problem here is that the fans that hate it here are as a whole snobs.
It's not enough that they like and read what they like, they have to hate what you like and read. I use to be like this, then one day I realized how stupid it was. I mean I would think that Matt and I have reading taste that are totally different, but I could care less what he reads, it's enough that I know he likes it and gets pleasure out of it.
ps. they will never change, Gary, Kim and their kind need something to hate.
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#505311 - 12/20/02 12:15 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Dan Carroll Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Is there other issues at hand? I don't mean the old tired saw about how superhero comics are strangling the industry. Really, that's played.


What color is the sky? And don't say blue, because everyone says that.

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#505312 - 12/20/02 01:19 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Carroll:


What color is the sky? And don't say blue, because everyone says that.


It's whatever color you see it to be.

Me...? I see it as plaid. I gotta start eating more healthy foods.

But, what if some people say the sky is red, but they are just looking at it through angry eyes? wink
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"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

COMICS UNLIMITED
654-B E. Diamond Avenue
Evansville, Indiana 47711
(812) 423-6952

www.comicsunlimited.biz

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#505313 - 12/20/02 01:49 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
darryl comix Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/02
Posts: 1197
Loc: New York
Quote:
Originally posted by redrocketred:
It's bad enough that growing up some of us had to either hide our passion for comic books or got stereotyped as a comic book geek.


Not me. But that's besides the point.

Quote:
You don't need a man who publishes comic books to look down on you for reading "the wrong comics." If the comics he champions are as good as they are then they should be flying off the shelves.


No. Not at all. If you look at the true quality in EVERY medium, almost NONE of the cream of the crop gets commercial love. History shows that most consumers aren't interested in looking for anything that may be better than what's placed right in front of them. Most of the highest grossing movies are crap, most of the widely watched TV shows are crap, most of the highest selling comics are also crap. Most people are entertained by the most readily availible slop there is, and even if they are not, do not have the inclination to search for music/movies/TV/books/comics that are better.


Quote:
He should be doing more to get these books and stories into our hands instead of labeling other members of his community, the comic book community.


I agree, but apparantly Groth & Thompson find their current business model to be satisfactory for the moment. And when you think about it, they make a lot from trades/graphic novels anyway.

Quote:
I actually think that Groth is the ultimate nerd.


I don't think Groth is the type of person who dresses up to see STAR WARS or LORD OF THE RINGS, so, no, I disagree.

Quote:
How seriously can you take a man who goes to war over funny pictures drawn on a piece of paper?



Very seriously. As somebody else said, this is entertainment for you, but its some people's entire livlihood.

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#505314 - 12/20/02 02:51 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
MBunge Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Quote:
Originally posted by darryl comix:


No. Not at all. If you look at the true quality in EVERY medium, almost NONE of the cream of the crop gets commercial love. History shows that most consumers aren't interested in looking for anything that may be better than what's placed right in front of them. Most of the highest grossing movies are crap, most of the widely watched TV shows are crap, most of the highest selling comics are also crap. Most people are entertained by the most readily availible slop there is, and even if they are not, do not have the inclination to search for music/movies/TV/books/comics that are better.



This is something that gets repeated often, but it's really not true. Most of the art, literature and music that are considered "masterpieces" today recieved a great deal of popular acclaim in the past, even if it wasn't immediate.

The idea that "popular=crap" and "unheralded=good" is a very flawed, modern idea. Traditionally, great art has always been expected to have mass appeal. Maybe everyone doesn't appreciate the work on the same level, but the "past masters" would have laughed at the idea that popular approval is impossible for great work to achieve.

A lot of mainstream entertainment is, of course, crap. But the idea that the crap quotient is any less in the so-called "alternative" or "fringe" media, is silly.

Mike

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#505315 - 12/20/02 02:56 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by MBunge:


...A lot of mainstream entertainment is, of course, crap. But the idea that the crap quotient is any less in the so-called "alternative" or "fringe" media, is silly.

Mike


"Mainstream" by its' very nature, produces more "crap." But, also by that nature, it can produce as much "gold."
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"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

COMICS UNLIMITED
654-B E. Diamond Avenue
Evansville, Indiana 47711
(812) 423-6952

www.comicsunlimited.biz

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