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#505846 - 01/10/03 02:37 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
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Gene,

I'm just plumb tired of this debate. Suffice it to say that I don't see anything Tom did up until you two started to get a little nasty towards each other as anything outside of a civil debate. I regularly caricature my friends' positions as well as sometimes state their positions are incoherent, silly, or just plain dumb and I see no reason why I or anyone else can't do any of this here (as long as it can be backed up with argumentation). Maybe Tom did miss a few of your points, but your main point was trumped to my mind and that's what's important here (at least to me, and I suppose it's not that important either). Hope you don't mind if I bow out, but I'm starting feel like the bit part in a sitcom where I'm supposed to repeat what the 2 central quarreling lovebirds are saying about each other. Eventually, you'll disturb my meal by leaning over it to talk directly.

As for your question about the Pat parody, I would ask myself: (1) Does it actually look like Pat? (2) Does Pat possess opinions strikingly similar to Pussey's? (3) Is it funny to make such a comparison? And, if all those are "yes": (4) Does decorum overrule making an accurately funny joke at someone else's expense? Now, clearly the majority of biting soical humor answers in the negative to question 4. So would I answer "yes" to all the other 3 questions? Yep, I'm afraid I would. There is a lot of similarity on the physical and conceptual levels and it made me laugh for those reasons. I'll admit that there's a bit of meanness to it and I probably wouldn't have made the joke if I had been first to think of it, but I also don't hang heavy objects from my nutsacs, despite having no moral problem with it and being perfectly willing to look at any pictures that someone wishes to show me. Is it fair to use the joke to dismiss Pat's arguments? Nope, logic is capable of handling that just fine.

Not that I agree Tom has done anything similar to you, mind you.
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#505847 - 01/10/03 02:50 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Pat ONeill Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Does decorum overrule making an accurately funny joke at someone else's expense? Now, clearly the majority of biting soical humor answers in the negative to question 4.


The meaningful word in that question is "accurately". I would dispute that the comparisons made in the illustration in question are accurate.

And decorum demands that the target of "biting social humor" have the ability to respond to the attack. Since those who originally published the item in question knew I didn't read the Journal (on principle), they knew their "joke" would go unresponded until months later (if at all) when friends showed me a copy of the magazine.

This was the equivalent of writing someone's name and number on a bathroom wall of the opposite gender...aware that the target would have no chance of knowing the grafitto even existed.
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#505848 - 01/10/03 03:01 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
I understand your miffedness, Pat, but the joke wasn't made to you, it was about you and your worldview. It'd be like making fun of fat geeks in costumes at conventions to your friends. Maybe it's mean, but that doesn't entail that it's not accurately pointing something out and worth a chuckle or two at the target's expense.
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#505849 - 01/10/03 03:31 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
gene phillips Offline
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Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Charles,
I'll just say I thought the putative resemblance strained at best, which failing invalidates even a mean joke. For me at least. And IMO the joke is no meaningful or more mentally challenging than Hawes' Photoshop antics, which is the only reason I brought it up. Thanks for giving me your answer.

For the record, I don't agree with Pat that everyone producing a satire has to make it readily available to the person satirized. In some cases that could be suicidal. SPY VS. SPY artist Prohias was lucky to simply get kicked out of Cuba for satirizing Castro; if he'd sent his offending cartoons directly to the humorless dictator the artist probably would've been shot. Not that Pat would do such a thing.

In spite of everything, enjoyed your comparison to the person relaying the 'lover's quarrel' messages. Very witty.

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#505850 - 01/10/03 04:06 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
Charles,
...The joke is no meaningful or more mentally challenging than Hawes' Photoshop antics...


Oh, poo on you, Mr. Phillips.

:p

wink
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#505851 - 01/10/03 06:21 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Quote:
I'll just say I thought the putative resemblance strained at best, which failing invalidates even a mean joke. For me at least. And IMO the joke is no meaningful or more mentally challenging than Hawes' Photoshop antics, which is the only reason I brought it up. Thanks for giving me your answer.


We've gone way off course of the admittedly tangential topic of why you're more peeved at Tom than Matt. I'll end by saying that there's a big difference between not only interjecting dumb graphics into a debate, but repeatedly doing so, in addition to post after post after post of almost the exact same pitched whine and publishing a parody in a magazine that satirizes an opponent from previous debates.

Ah well, where else does one get to discuss such particularized moral quandaries? I'm sure none of these concrete problems ever occurred to anyone reading Kant or Mill.
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#505852 - 01/10/03 06:37 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Reece:


We've gone way off course of the admittedly tangential topic of why you're more peeved at Tom than Matt...


Gene's peeved at me? Oh well. Is that because he expected me to moderate between him and Tom?

Anyway, I think it's interesting to note that I am still the topic of conversation even when I am not the topic, here on this thread.

This thread's played, isn't it?
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#505853 - 01/10/03 06:56 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
madget Offline
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Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Not the topic, Matt; a convenient (negative) example related to a (tangential) topic.

I understand that seeing others refer to you by name must be endlessly exciting, though.

K

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#505854 - 01/10/03 07:10 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by madget:
...I understand that seeing others refer to you by name must be endlessly exciting, though.

K


You like me! You really, really like me!

Actually, I'd preferred it if the discussion had stayed focused on the issues rather than about any poster, him or herself. There has been some of that, but not enough.

Anyway, we've all said as much as we can say about the original issues.
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#505855 - 01/10/03 07:58 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
I rest my case.
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