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#505856 - 01/10/03 11:24 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Joe Zabel Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Charles wrote-- 'As for your question about the Pat parody, I would ask myself: (1) Does it actually look like Pat? (2) Does Pat possess opinions strikingly similar to Pussey's? (3) Is it funny to make such a comparison? And, if all those are "yes": (4) Does decorum overrule making an accurately funny joke at someone else's expense?'

1) Been too long since I've seen it; as I recall there was some point of comparison-- they both wore glasses, the hair looked similar.

2) No. Pat is a critic of intellectual pretention. Pussey was a socially backward individual who'se only talent was drawing superheroes. Been a while since I read the story (which I thought was quite good) but I don't think he ever expressed any criticism of anybody.

3) Not to me, certainly. But it's more important to ask why a person would find it funny.

4) Instead of using the term 'decorum,' I would use 'compassion.'

Why was the comparison with the cartoon funny to fans of the Comics Journal? Because they dislike Pat's criticism of the magazine. Furthermore, it was funny to them because the comparison was intended as an insult. Dan Pussey is not merely a superhero artist. He's someone with a very homely face; that was the whole point of the story -- the character is ugly, but is admired by comics fans because of his talent drawing superheroes.

The Comics Journal published the graphic for one purpose only-- to insult Pat's appearance. You might find that funny, Charles. I just find it sad.

When this issue first came up, I challenged the Comics Journal staff to publish pictures of themselves, so we could judge who had more going for them in the looks department. I suspect that Pat would have come out ahead in that comparison.
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#505857 - 01/11/03 12:00 AM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Aw geez, Joe, the point wasn't just to make fun of his appearance because he's made some trenchant criticisms of the Journal, but rather the intrepid obdurance in the face of overwhelming rational odds with which he sticks to the same wrong opinions he was expressing in the Journal's letter page nearly 20 years ago. There's a delusional quality to his positions that comes very close to a Pussey persona. Just go to the "Superhero Mainstream" thread if you've forgotten this.

For Christ's sake, Gene's new bete noire, the Spurge, wrote an entire article about his own obesity, playing into the whole fat comic book reader stereotype (if one is so inclined to read it that way).
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#505858 - 01/11/03 08:29 AM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Charles-- I think it's stretching the point to attribute anything more than a vague similarity between Pat's preference for superhero comics and Dan's talent for drawing them.

I stand by my assertion that the the graphic that was published had nothing more in mind than to inflict a mean-spirited insult on a critic of the magazine.

If Journal staff members wish to discuss their own personal appearances, that's their choice. But that's entirely different than attacking someone else in this regard.

Of course, it has always been within the lampoonist's purview to ridicule the appearance of prominent members of society. But it's one thing to target a politician or show business star, someone who's profession is based on their physical appearance. It's something else entirely to dredge up a snapshot of a nettlesome fan and display it in an unflattering side-by-side.

I disagree with Pat's opinions as much as anybody, and I think it's perfectly legitimate to lampoon his ideas and debating tactics. But I think the Dan Pussey graphic is a good example of TCJ's shallow coldness and lack of compassion for ordinary people.
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#505859 - 01/11/03 10:14 AM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
I'm sorry... I'm now required by law to do this:

PAGE 12 WOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

laugh
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#505860 - 01/11/03 11:15 AM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Joe Zabel Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
I think BooooHoooo! would be more appropriate, Matt!
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#505861 - 01/11/03 12:36 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Matt Hawes Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1965
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Zabel:
I think BooooHoooo! would be more appropriate, Matt!


Joe, ya lug, ya just can't git enuff of dis stuff, can ya?

wink
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"Mainstream" Matthew Hawes

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#505862 - 01/11/03 02:31 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Zabel:
I stand by my assertion that the the graphic that was published had nothing more in mind than to inflict a mean-spirited insult on a critic of the magazine.

If Journal staff members wish to discuss their own personal appearances, that's their choice. But that's entirely different than attacking someone else in this regard.

Of course, it has always been within the lampoonist's purview to ridicule the appearance of prominent members of society. But it's one thing to target a politician or show business star, someone who's profession is based on their physical appearance. It's something else entirely to dredge up a snapshot of a nettlesome fan and display it in an unflattering side-by-side.
I disagree with Pat's opinions as much as anybody, and I think it's perfectly legitimate to lampoon his ideas and debating tactics. But I think the Dan Pussey graphic is a good example of TCJ's shallow coldness and lack of compassion for ordinary people.


Does Pat have some professional capacity in the comics industry? Often as I've seen him post I've never been quite clear on this. And where did the Journal get his picture from, anyway?

If he isn't in the industry, even I -- a total jackass -- have to admit, that sounds pretty petty. But, I'm just going by what I've heard on this thread, so who knows. I've only picked up the Journal a couple times and I don't know anything about Pat's history with it.

Just curious, as this has been brought up multiple times now.


K

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#505863 - 01/11/03 02:37 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Reece:


We've gone way off course of the admittedly tangential topic of why you're more peeved at Tom than Matt. I'll end by saying that there's a big difference between not only interjecting dumb graphics into a debate, but repeatedly doing so, in addition to post after post after post of almost the exact same pitched whine and publishing a parody in a magazine that satirizes an opponent from previous debates.

Ah well, where else does one get to discuss such particularized moral quandaries? I'm sure none of these concrete problems ever occurred to anyone reading Kant or Mill.


Well, Matt's right about one thing: we've just about reached the end.

You, Charles, brought up the Photoshop graphics as one of two reasons I should be averse to Hawes' line of argument. I answer by saying that to me the graphics are silly but harmless, and, I would add, much less mean-spirited than the Pat parody. I don't think either is particularly enlightening.

I would remind you that the JOURNAL is also not the only place the Pat parody appeared: someone put it on the Comicon boards, too, and it was removed at the insistence of the administrators. I don't recall who put it up but I think it safe to assume it was someone who didn't like Pat's arguments and wanted to take a stab at him.

This is my perhaps roundabout way of reminding everyone that indy-sympathizers have done things on this board that are as silly (though maybe not as harmless) as Matt's stuff.

And, no, Matt: I'm not peeved at you for using the graphics; they don't matter to me as much as they do to Charles.

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#505864 - 01/11/03 08:16 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
Pat ONeill Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 3064
Loc: PA, USA
Quote:
Does Pat have some professional capacity in the comics industry? Often as I've seen him post I've never been quite clear on this. And where did the Journal get his picture from, anyway?


How quickly one's light can fade!

I was the managing editor of the original run of Comics Scene back in the early '80s; senior contributing editor of the second run a few years later; a regular contributor to Starlog, Comics Interview and, yes, even Amazing Heroes throughout the '80s; first editor of Wizard in the '90s; and since then a fairly regular contributor to both Comics Buyer's Guide and Comics & Games Retailer.
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#505865 - 01/11/03 08:41 PM Re: Why Gary Gripes! Why is mainstream evil in and of itself?
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Quote:
Originally posted by Pat ONeill:

How quickly one's light can fade!
I was the managing editor of the original run of Comics Scene back in the early '80s; senior contributing editor of the second run a few years later; a regular contributor to Starlog, Comics Interview and, yes, even Amazing Heroes throughout the '80s; first editor of Wizard in the '90s; and since then a fairly regular contributor to both Comics Buyer's Guide and Comics & Games Retailer.


OK. No offense or anything, I just don't follow comics especially closely so I'm never entirely sure just based on the names.

K

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