It turned out fine.

Thanks for ignoring the point about how the percentages between storeowners who support the alternatives and Journal writers who write positively of mainstream comics are HUGELY different in favor of the Journal. I guess we both agree it's a bad, non-enlightening comparison.

As for unique -- I'm not putting words in your mouth here on this thread, Gene, I'm characterizing our past argument, since you brought it up out of nowhere instead of engaging the points made here. Nothing like turning a thread over to posts on the appropriateness of a weird comparison to get at the heart of things.

To recap that thread: You offered up a statement of cause. I offered up an alternative. You argued against the likelihood of the alternative.

Now in my old debating books, that indicates you're arguing that your cause is unique. If not, then I win that old argument. It would have happened one way or the other, and no special consideration for that mechanism should be made.

Back to this. I freely admit up the thread to another guy that there's no way I can prove that hatred doesn't exist in our hearts. But I can examine the reasonableness of this statement, using the actions that are part of some public record -- the Journal's publication history and that of its writers.

Boiling it down, I think it's much more reasonable to think that while Journal editors and writers don't like a lot of mainstream comics, they actually do like some mainstream artists and books on their own terms. This is evidenced by their choice to cover them -- when other covers would lead to more sales! -- to cover them with respect and thoroughness when they do, and even list them on Top 100 lists made available to the public.

I think only a really dense person or a person trying to win some part of an argument would really choose to believe that all of that coverage, the nature of the coverage, and the lisiting of representative works on Top 100 lists were done despite a dark and foreboding hatred for the material.

I mean, holy crap, what reward do I get doing a friendly interview with John Romita if I hate his work?

And if they did, people would stop watching.

Which is pretty much why the superhero publishers "flood" the market with their product--people keep buying it. It's not that they absolutely must buy a comic book and just don't have any alternatives to superheroes. It's that they like to buy superhero comics. Superhero comics they don't like to read get canceled and replaced with another superhero comic that sells better.

If people were to suddenly stop buying superhero comics, there would be a sudden abrupt change in the marketplace.

That doesn't sound all that bad to me.



The main direction of this thread has been about the divide in comics between the superhero and non-superhero crowds. Those that have posted in it are contributing to that discussion, which is actually an argument that you my friend have been very much a part of.



Ok sure Wertham and the Comics Code did have this kind of an effect. It well might have resulted in the destruction of the entire comics business, but it did not because of the financial viability of superheroes. Finding things to criticize about superheroes does not change the fact that they kept comics alive during difficult times.



Don't feel bad, it isn't just you.

It's starting already....

"Open inquiry to JOURNAL subscribers: how many of you would continue subscribing if the JOURNAL quit running interviews altogether?"

Not a subscriber, but I get every issue, and the interviews are the least interesting part of the magazine, PARTICULARLY the mainstream ones. A good example (of what I don't like about interviews, not just mainstream interviews) is the Dave Cooper one in which the only slightly interesting thing said was by the interviewer to which Cooper would just reply, "I never really considered that." Have more theory and get rid of the fucking things altogether, I say (except on the rare occasion where the artist -- e.g., Kane and Bissette* -- has something interesting to say about art, life, etc., for 30 or more pages).

*nah, the irony doesn't escape me regarding my examples.

Not surprising.



If you can find any statement I have made in this thread, or on this board, that people who like superhero comics shouldn't buy them, or even that I hate superhero comics, or anything even similar to these ideas, I will eat my hat.

You made an untrue statement. I pointed it out.

You responded by saying, "Hey, come on, I saw Ghost World! Stop badmouthing superhero comics, okay?"

I scratched my head in confusion.



This is gonna be fun...

"Your opinion, and little else."



Well, that's a relief.

All kinds of comics, including newspaper strips and manga, outsell superdupers, but so many so-called "comics shops" are actually superhero shops to the exclusion of all else that people who want the other kinds of comics don't go to comics shops. They go to bookstores or order online.

Regarding TCJ interviews, I value them because although I'm not a cartoonist, I do creative work, and value windows into the minds of other creators. What I like about Journal (and Playboy) interviews is that they often go in deep and give one a more complete sense of the aesthetics, processes and beliefs of the creators. Top that, Wizard!

It seems to me (and keep in mind that I may not be directly referring to you) that more time gets spent on this board arguing over which comics are better and which type of fan is better. I like this board fine but it can get truly ridiculous.

We are talking about COMIC BOOKS for the love of Pete, lighten up!!



My point was that superhero fans like comics (as a medium) first, meaning all kinds of comics are OK to us. There is nothing confusing about it.

I'll extrapolate a little bit. HENCE, prospective comics readers bypass the comic book stores and buy comics through booksellers. This does not mean they aren't readng comics-- but it does mean that they are not putting money into the COMIC BOOK INDUSTRY. I am defining the comic book industry as companies that do the bulk of their business through the Direct Market (Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc.) as well as the stores that sell comic books exclusively. People are spending their money at BOOKSTORES, not at COMIC BOOK STORES. Therefore, the very stores and publishers that primarily push superhero comics are hurting THEMSELVES by not providing a wider range of genre choices for their potential customers.

THIS IS HARMFUL TO THE COMIC BOOK/DIRECT MARKET INDUSTRY.

I think that's all anyone here is trying to say. This is how the mainstream is hurting the industry. I do think it's getting better. In the last few years, we've seen crime comics become a viable genre again, and some publishers (DC more than Marvel in this instance) do seem to be willing to take a bit more of a risk on trying new material. I tend to think that this is due to desperation in a shrinking marketplace, but it is a step in the right direction.