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#506738 - 01/15/03 03:00 PM "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Is anyone else torqued by Dubya's recent announcement that "the Iraqis must disarm?" I mean, one minute it's, "Saddam, you better let those inspectors in or else," and the next it's "You better show us those weapons the inspectors didn't find, or else."
Whotta maroon.

For those not in the know, the "fool me once" reference is to a gaffe Dubya made a month or so back, when he mangled the old "fool me once" adage in an attempt to be what he is not: a witty speaker.

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#506739 - 01/15/03 04:46 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
JaNell Golden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 15
That's our President, busy putting the "Duh" back into "Dubya".

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#506740 - 01/15/03 04:58 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Dan Carroll Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by JaNell:
putting the "Duh" back into "Dubya".


Heh heh... I gotta steal that one...

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#506741 - 01/15/03 05:06 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
S.C. Powers Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Houston, Texas
I agree with Duhbya, I mean he might not be totally correct in his campaign against Suddam, but he should be given credit and plus most parts of his plan are actually prety good. I mean look at the amount of troops he is sending into Kuwait, 60,000. Then he is sending 67,000 more in before the war even starts. THey are also doing urban warfare training to get the soldiers used to being in that kind of environment. I plan to be a marine one day and study up on my news. I support Duhbya and his plan fully.
_________________________
An excerpt from the Marine hymn.

The Marines' Hymn

Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever gaze on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

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#506742 - 01/15/03 05:33 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
JaNell Golden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Carroll:


Heh heh... I gotta steal that one...


Nah, quote me. It'll look cooler, like I have a fan or something. :rolleyes:

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#506743 - 01/15/03 06:30 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
What's with the anti-affirmative action thing and the 'sancity of life day' both on the same day? Is Bush trying to shore up his support on the right? I mean, hasn't he satisfied his right wing enough? One theory-- he's getting flack for the North Korea overture, so he's trying to change the subject.
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#506744 - 01/15/03 07:06 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
For those not in the know, the "fool me once" reference is to a gaffe Dubya made a month or so back, when he mangled the old "fool me once" adage in an attempt to be what he is not: a witty speaker.


I still crack up just thinking about that one. I really wish I had it on tape. Whatever you want to say about W, no one can claim he's been less than entertaining.

More entertaining yet I imagine to the rest of the world who has the pleasure of shaking their heads and murmuring: "they actually elected this man."


K

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#506745 - 01/15/03 07:10 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
JaNell Golden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally posted by madget:
"they actually elected this man."
[/QB]


No we didn't. That was the year we started assigning Presidents alphabetically; didn't you get the memo?
laugh

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#506746 - 01/15/03 07:53 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Eric Millikin_dup1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 176
Loc: Detroit
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Zabel:
What's with the anti-affirmative action thing and the 'sancity of life day' both on the same day? Is Bush trying to shore up his support on the right? I mean, hasn't he satisfied his right wing enough? One theory-- he's getting flack for the North Korea overture, so he's trying to change the subject.


He did the National Sanctity of Life Day routine last year about this time -- it's timed to coincide with the anniversary of Roe vs. Wade (The 30th aniversary is this year, Thurs. Jan. 23). The anti-affirmative action stance is probably meant to make clear any confusion there may have been after Bush's recent criticism of Trent Lott's failure to be appropriately vague in his racist statements.
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#506747 - 01/16/03 03:14 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
Is anyone else torqued by Dubya's recent announcement that "the Iraqis must disarm?" I mean, one minute it's, "Saddam, you better let those inspectors in or else," and the next it's "You better show us those weapons the inspectors didn't find, or else."
Whotta maroon.


Sadam's the guy who oversaw the use of poison gas against Iran and the Iranian people during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, and summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war as a matter of policy. He used poison gas on cities in the "Anfal" campaign in the late 1980's against the Iraqi Kurds. In one of the worst single mass killings in recent history, Iraq dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in 1988, which killed as many as 5,000 people — mostly civilians.

Eleven empty chemical-weapon warheads were just found in good operating condition in Iraq. Read it here.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/iraq030116.html

Yeah, that Bush sure is a maroon for not trusting good ol', honest Saddam.

Give me a break. Disagreeing with a president politically is one thing, but to the point of taking the side of a despot like Hussein is, to me, mind-boggling.
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#506748 - 01/16/03 03:56 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allen:


Sadam's the guy who oversaw the use of poison gas against Iran and the Iranian people during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, and summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war as a matter of policy. He used poison gas on cities in the "Anfal" campaign in the late 1980's against the Iraqi Kurds. In one of the worst single mass killings in recent history, Iraq dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in 1988, which killed as many as 5,000 people — mostly civilians.

Eleven empty chemical-weapon warheads were just found in good operating condition in Iraq. Read it here.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/iraq030116.html

Yeah, that Bush sure is a maroon for not trusting good ol', honest Saddam.

Give me a break. Disagreeing with a president politically is one thing, but to the point of taking the side of a despot like Hussein is, to me, mind-boggling.


Mark,
Nowhere on this thread or anywhere else have I "taken the side of a despot like Hussein." I would shed no tears to see him dead.

Also, the issue I brought up was not, "Why doesn't Bush TRUST good ol' honest Saddam?" It was, rather, "After pressuring Iraq to let the inspectors in, it stands to reason that if they don't find anything, Bush can't justifiably claim that Hussein has a secret cache of arms." This is not to suggest that I am unaware of Hussein's record of trying to obtain destructive weapons; obviously he's no babe in the woods, and it's been persuasively argued that if the Israelis hadn't attacked Iraq in the late 80's to eliminate a nuclear project, Iraq could've been nuclear during the Gulf War. I can readily believe that Saddam's tried to obtain weapons since then, that he might have some in violation of the treaty, and that he might have simply squirreled them away once the pressure for inspection intensified.

But Bush's "bold" statement that "they must disarm or else" does IMO make Bush like a maroon who's too impatient to let the inspectors do their job, OR someone who's anxious to make progress on an Iraqi war in order to benefit his big business buddies. And as it happens, the inspectors DID do their job, and uncovered some of those squirreled-away weapons.

This, however, leads to yet another possibility: that Bush made the statement a few days before the news was announced publicly because he had advance info, and wanted to look as if he were prescient in claiming that Saddam still had weapons.

Or do you consider that beyond the realm of possibility?

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#506749 - 01/16/03 03:57 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Jughead Jones Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 814
Loc: Riverdale USA
Hussein (I don't feel I know the man well enough to be on a first-name basis) is a monster-- that's well established. He should never have been allowed to remain in power after the gulf war, and it was shameful the way Bush, then Clinton, allowed him to crush the opposition that the US encouraged at the end of the war.

BUT, G.W. Bush is being rather inconsistant. First, he demanded that weapons inspectors be allowed in, then, when Hussein agreed, Bush prepared to block weapons inspectors from reentering the country until he could get a UN resolution against Iraq.

I was disappointed to hear about the warheads found in Iraq. I had really been hoping to avoid a war there, but it seems now may be our best opportunity to remove Hussein from power.
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#506750 - 01/16/03 04:09 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
This, however, leads to yet another possibility: that Bush made the statement a few days before the news was announced publicly because he had advance info, and wanted to look as if he were prescient in claiming that Saddam still had weapons.

Or do you consider that beyond the realm of possibility?


Of course it's not beyond the realm of possibility; Bush is a politician, who, like any, would probably have no qualms about such manipulations to make himself look good.

It's also, however, not beyond the realm of possibility that Blix (who has been outspoken against Bush) got nervous after his meeting yesterday with Condi Rice when she said his March report was not necessary. I can see Blix thinking "Oh, CRAP! They're going ahead with military action! We better come clean with what we've ALREADY found, make it look like the inspections are a success and slow the U.S. down!" Not such a stretch when you think of how some of our own U.S. citizens who are in the public spotlight have tried to torpedo their own president by doing photo ops with Saddam and other Iraquis.
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#506751 - 01/16/03 04:12 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by Jughead Jones:
Hussein (I don't feel I know the man well enough to be on a first-name basis)


Tell "G.W." I said "Hey!" the next time you seel him. wink
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#506752 - 01/16/03 04:15 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Haddison Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 74
Loc: Fitchburg, WI, USA
One thing's for sure--W's a lot smarter than all the people who think he's stupid.

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#506753 - 01/16/03 04:21 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
S.C. Powers Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Houston, Texas
Yet again I state my topic. Suddam WHosane should just give up now. The way Duhbya planned the liberation of Iraq is invincible Almost, Mind you I said almost. He will have to give in sometime. Even though the CIA agents have not yet penatratedd his security wall of thugs and regime, the marine forces will eventually find him.
On the other hand he could be a little wuss and run away like Osama bin Laden to another foreign country and hide like a mole. But the chances of this happening are slim to none, because WHosane is not that kind of Arabic, heh heh. He will stand and fight to protect his cause unlike his friend Bin laden. Note that I am just saying his friend because they are for the same cause, to destroy American of the face of the earth and surrneder to the Arabic ways. I am not saying this will happen, just suggesting. wink In the end we will most likely come out the victor. Oh yes and I have just read that they are putting anti-missile defenses in Israel to protect them.
Now I know your going to ask, why not do this for us, to protect us. Well we are, except for the wrong country, North Korea, the President has issued that intercepter missiles be put in Alaska. Why? Dont ask. Yes the Koreans are more advanced than the Iraqis, but are a lesser threat in this moment. We are currently making amends with them, for whatever the heck they said we did. :rolleyes: Finally all I want to say is that Bush's plan will be effective, no matter in what way. laugh
_________________________
An excerpt from the Marine hymn.

The Marines' Hymn

Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever gaze on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

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#506754 - 01/16/03 04:24 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 2890
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
...and wanted to look as if he were prescient in claiming that Saddam still had weapons.



But hasn't this been his claim all along?

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#506755 - 01/16/03 04:26 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Jughead Jones Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 814
Loc: Riverdale USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allen:


Tell "G.W." I said "Hey!" the next time you seel him. wink


I used his full name, Mark, first and middle initials and last name, to differentiate him from his father, whom I mentioned in a previous sentence.

Good thing you read it so carefully.
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#506756 - 01/16/03 05:37 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Hicks:



But hasen't this been his claim all along?


Make that "more prescient than his critics ever dreamed."

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#506757 - 01/16/03 06:51 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by Jughead Jones:


I used his full name, Mark, first and middle initials and last name, to differentiate him from his father, whom I mentioned in a previous sentence.

Good thing you read it so carefully.


It was just a little jab, hence the wink. Sorry to upset you.
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#506758 - 01/16/03 07:06 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
HipHopHead Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 195
Loc: Los Angeles
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO AL QUEDA?!?!?!?!

We were initial told that Al Queda was responsible for the planes on 9/11. So we sent our troops to Afghanastan to wipe out the Al Queda training sites. Then, we decided to do a "two-for-one" and wipe out the Taliban, since they had cut production of the poppy flower. Then we had the "Taliban on the run", does anyone remember these headlines? We were also told that Osama Bin Laden was the head of Al Queda. Is anyone looking for him? confused Between the Bush administration looking for Bin Laden and O.J. Simpson looking for the killer of Nicole and Ron, I don't know who is worst.

Now we are looking to oust, er, I mean assassinate Sadam and it has nothing to do with the vast oil supply wink . Okay :rolleyes:

Excellent thread, we are all not lost in our comic books.

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#506759 - 01/16/03 07:44 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Korvac Offline
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Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
And could somebody please explain to me how a dusty 15 year old crate of EMPTY missile casings is a substantial breach? Does anyone think the US Government can account for every single crate of hot flaming death in it's possesion? Hell, they've lost POUNDS of weapons grade plutonium alone.

It rings very hollow internationally when The US refuses to sign international treaties against landmines and bio-weapons and then seeks to justify war because someone else MIGHT have such weapons.

Saddam is a sonofabitch, but when members of the administration openly refer to Iraqi oil reserves and oilfields as 'spoils of war', the mask has slipped. There are still alternatives, like letting the Inspectors do their job and respecting multilateralism. What are the odds?
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#506760 - 01/16/03 08:50 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
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Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 2890
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
...seeks to justify war because someone else MIGHT have such weapons.


Saddam lost the first war and has not lived up to the terms of the cease fire. That we let him slide in the 90's does not change the fact that he is still responsible for those terms. This administration is now pressing him to comply.


(Hey Jug, I just use the first name because he's not worth remembering how to spell the last.)

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#506761 - 01/16/03 09:09 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Korvac Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
It's not about violated terms. Which I readily concede Saddam could have violated. There are lots of states violating the terms of UN resolutions.

It's not about weapons of mass destruction - which he certainly could have, and which the Administration could have concrete knowledge about. - to quote another Bill Hicks once again: "How do we know they have weapons of mass destruction? We checked the receipt."

It's not about the way he treats his own people or how he treats the Kurds. The US Government didn't care about them when Saddam was convenient. They don't care about them now.

What's it all about? All together folks...

It's about the oil.
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#506762 - 01/16/03 09:25 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
kingtut Offline
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Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 1349
Loc: CS, CO
Duh, really?
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#506763 - 01/16/03 09:53 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 2890
Loc: Ohio
Not UN resolutions, surrender terms.

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#506764 - 01/16/03 09:55 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Korvac Offline
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Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
It aint about them either.
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#506765 - 01/16/03 10:30 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 2890
Loc: Ohio
It absolutely is. The US has never denied that the Gulf War was largely about oil. Oil is power and Saddam simply cannot be permitted to have that much power. Just as it was the case in the 80's that Iran could not be permitted to have that much power. That's why we supported Iraq in their war with Iran. Not because we thought he was a swell guy and we would never have to deal with him in the future. It's a legitimate world security issue.

Look, I just had to chip in when you said we "seek to justify war because someone else MIGHT have such weapons." Saddam is forbidden to have such weapons, due to his own actions. Continuing the war is justified. You guys don't like it. I have no problem with it. We disagree.

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#506766 - 01/17/03 09:43 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
justapilgrim32 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 1106
Loc: monroe n.c.
korvac... my misguided friend, it is becoming more and more apparent to me that you have read one too many OP-ED pieces spewwed out by liberal minded european socialists!!! If you dont like or agree with American politics, the solution is simple... stay out of them!! you being a Canadian citizen i have no earthly idea why you find it imperative to bog your mind down with the inner-workings of our poitical/military matters. I, being a U.S. citizen would greatly appreciate it if you would direct some of your discontent/anger at the U.N. or some other organization in which Canada actually has a vote. Why every opinionated person in the world thinks they know what is best, or right for America to be doing is beyond understanding to me. We have the best intelligence, political structure, military and economy in the universe... i can rest easy knowing that my leaders are "fully" informed about potential threats, "carefully" planning our future actions, and "steadfastly" gaurding our national security and interests. when you or any other editorial writer gets better information/sources than the President has at his disposal, well thens the day i start actually listening to some of that crap you spew!
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#506767 - 01/17/03 11:48 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Jughead Jones Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 814
Loc: Riverdale USA
Quote:
Originally posted by justapilgrim32:
korvac... my misguided friend, it is becoming more and more apparent to me that you have read one too many OP-ED pieces spewwed out by liberal minded european socialists!!! If you dont like or agree with American politics, the solution is simple... stay out of them!! you being a Canadian citizen i have no earthly idea why you find it imperative to bog your mind down with the inner-workings of our poitical/military matters. I, being a U.S. citizen would greatly appreciate it if you would direct some of your discontent/anger at the U.N. or some other organization in which Canada actually has a vote. Why every opinionated person in the world thinks they know what is best, or right for America to be doing is beyond understanding to me. We have the best intelligence, political structure, military and economy in the universe... i can rest easy knowing that my leaders are "fully" informed about potential threats, "carefully" planning our future actions, and "steadfastly" gaurding our national security and interests. when you or any other editorial writer gets better information/sources than the President has at his disposal, well thens the day i start actually listening to some of that crap you spew!


Yeah, Korvac! The whole world would be better if citizens of countries never paid attention to anything outside their own borders! Especially when the people in those other countries are so well informed they think the US has the "best economy in the universe!"

Pilgrim, this country is based on the idea that everyone can have an opinion, anyone can voice dissent with government policies, even a Canadian. That anyone is taking the time to learn about politics even a little before shooting his mouth off on a message board is a good thing. Out of curiosity, can you name a single member of the Canadian government?

Korvac, I don't agree with everything you're saying, but I do appreciate the discussion. Don't let guys like Pilgrim get away with their "if you don't agree with me then shut up" attitude. He might do well to review his signature.
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#506768 - 01/17/03 12:03 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
justapilgrim32 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 1106
Loc: monroe n.c.
jug- why would i possibly want or need to know a member of the Canadian govt? i have no voice or vote in the candain govt, hence i pay them no attention.
now so far as me telling korvac to "sit down and shut up", i do not recall ever stating such a thing. i merely pointed out that he has no say or really any reason to concern himself with the inner workings of my countries political structure/leaders. to me it just clearly smacks of one putting ones nose in anothers buisness, thats my opinion, im entitled to it.. aren't i libs?
the main focus of my post was to state that the u.s. govt is clearly better informed on topics of relevance than korvac, jughead, european socilist editorial columnists (see korvac's link on the other current "let's slam the president" thread), or myself... so why do all these people seem to think they know what the united states should be doing better than the officials we elected to serve us? are they better informed? they got better sources? better thoeries? better policies?... no they just got bigger mouths and a soapbox to stand on!!
and jugg... i'm well aware of my signature, dont mean ya can't have an opinion, just that you can't expect the rest of the world to have the same opinion!
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#506769 - 01/17/03 12:05 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Haddison Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 74
Loc: Fitchburg, WI, USA
Iraq accounts for seven per cent of the petroleum used by the United States. People who believe it's about the oil will find any reason to blame the United States.

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#506770 - 01/17/03 12:20 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Sock Puppet #9.5 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 523
Quote:
Originally posted by HipHopHead:
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO AL QUEDA?!?!?!?!
Like communism, it will exist for quite some time after the head is no longer functioning. And I don't mean Osama's death, either. Making sure Afganistan, largely still an ungoverned nation outside it's major cities, is pacified and better off is something we're doing without many men. This is by design, as it turns out. Flooding the country with 100,000 men would do little to allow the people there to exist without the feeling of having masters to hate. The country was a base (hence, the name) and making sure none of it is a base and the country is allowed to establish some form of govt. BY ITSELF is critical, and also an example of how the other countries in the region can also rid themselves of govts. that would kill free thinkers. This example also is seen by Afgan's neighbors to the north as well. Stability is boring, but can be productive. I don't think you need a "terra-rist killed" update every night... though I have seen an Indian based site that does have updated photos of dead terrorists. Believe it or not, road building is a way of getting people native to the region to think of America in slightly different terms. Here's to road construction!

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#506771 - 01/17/03 02:05 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Haddison:
Iraq accounts for seven per cent of the petroleum used by the United States. People who believe it's about the oil will find any reason to blame the United States.


Just because Iraqi currently accounts for 'seven per cent' NOW does not mean that the US gov't and assorted business allies would not like to have greater, and more regular, access to the resources of the world's second-largest supplier of crude oil. Particularly given the U.S. fraying relationship with the Saudis.

Of course, saying that this may be ONE motivation does not mean that it's the only one, though it's hard for me to credence that it isn't a motivation at all, given Bush's public statements about "the spoils of war." I can think of several other motivations that might inform the administration's desire to corral/control Iraq, and not all of them are bad reasons (one being, as Mark Allen pointed out, that Saddam is an exceptionally bad man, and not only from the POV of the U.S.)

Given all the other possible motivations, I can't claim that I know that "it's all about the oil." But IMO that's a damn big part of it.

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#506772 - 01/17/03 02:21 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Haddison Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 74
Loc: Fitchburg, WI, USA
I appreciate your reasoned response.

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#506773 - 01/17/03 02:38 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Macca Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 99
let's recap:

Bush and his henchmen (or is it the otherway around?) vow to find Osama and destroy the group responsible for 9/11

next thing you know, they are failing miserably at that task and starting to hear the grumblings among voters


Then . . . Enron and the like come along and Bush and his henchmen are about to get roasted for their connections and profits thereto and thereform

so the next thing you know . . . . WE NEED TO ATTACK IRAQ BECAUSE SADDAM IS BAD

nothing had changed -- Saddam was doing the same old crap and there was no explanation for this sudden urgency. In fact, tho Bush tried to connect Saddam to 9/11 and bin Laden but was forced to admit that they had could find no conection

the only thing that had changed was that Bush needed to direct the U.S public and press away from Enron, the failure to find Osama bin laden etc. and this is what he chose

and it's working beautifully

so don't go on about how Bush is stupid -- he's playing the public like a violin (albeit I'm sure with considerable assistance from his "backers")


I'm embarressed by my countrymen with regards to this issue -- Bush's ploy has been SO obvious all along and no one seems to care whatsoever


so the issue to me isn't whether Saddam needs to be taken out (or why we are seemingly unconcerned with all of the others who are just as bad if not worse) (or what we've done to KEEP such peolpe in power when it serves our own needs) but why no one seems to care that young poeple are being sent of to die, civilans killed, American families spearated, etc. all for a little shell-game PR to benift the current administration

that Bush is trying this crap is bad enough; our apathy and willingness to buy into this crap is shameful

P.S.

you'll notice I didn't mention Bush needing to divert attention from his adminstration's banning of the Bill of Rights in the name of fighting for the American Way (kinda like burning all your money so no one can steal it -- talk about winning Osama's battles for him) theer's been no need to divert attention from these ongoing and shameful acts becasue no one seems to give a shit about them
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#506774 - 01/17/03 03:05 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Dan Carroll Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by Macca:
theer's been no need to divert attention from these ongoing and shameful acts becasue no one seems to give a shit about them


I wish I had some way to argue that.

I really do.

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#506775 - 01/17/03 03:22 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Cheese0012 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 277
Loc: NYC
I don't know how well he's playing the public. Approval ratings for going to Iraq without UN agreement is about 29%. His job approval is down to 58%. I think a lot of people are asking the same question.

This started with this:
Quote:

"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."
Pres. G. W. Bush
Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002


I don't believe Bush is very smart. I think he has smart controllers. A 'C' student all his life, member of Skull & Bones, draft dodging and then AWOL for two years military man who was promoted to second lieutenant without the proper conditions being met, and a drunk, cocaine snorting failed business man who hadn't ever left the North America until he was selected. That doesn't add up to smart to me.

Quote:

Yet again I state my topic. Suddam WHosane should just give up now. The way Duhbya planned the liberation of Iraq is invincible


Funny, they said similar things about Vietnam. And trust me, GW has NOTHING to do with any planning of any invasions. The guy can't eat pretzels and watch a football game without hurting himself, they're not letting him plan shit. We're talking about a guy who took three outta his first nine months in office on vacation while Dick Cheney met with Enron execs to plan Americas energy strategy. Wasn't Iraq a threat then? Or was he too busy giving the Taliban $40 million for a gas pipeline? (finally a reality just last week!)

I think the saddest part is all we need to do is stop driving so much, or get better gas miliage and we could eleiminate the middle east completely. Look at the advances in technology in the last century, advances in computers, aerospace, medicine, everything except automobiles. It's my belief we need a Manhattan Project-type of research project into alternate energy sources. But of course with a President who killed Clintons clean air act, backed out of the Kyoto treaty and who's father belongs to one of the most powerful oil and weapons investment firms on the planet, it's unlikely before 2004.

See y'all in D.C. or L.A. this weekend.
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#506776 - 01/17/03 04:32 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Finar Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 600
Loc: Boston Ma
Hola Twice Luva's


Quote:
Originally posted by Haddison:
Iraq accounts for seven per cent of the petroleum used by the United States. People who believe it's about the oil will find any reason to blame the United States.


Bingo Thank you Haddison I look it as
Sadam is paying terrorists to assonate Israeli
Citizens. He also gives the terrorists aid & comfort

And heís broken every UN Sanction that been put before him

Iíd like to know where the 8 metric tons of Anthrax went
and why Sadamís Government sent all that Money to the
South African & Swedish biological firms ???

And I also agree we know he has the stuff because we gave him
the stuff and so I guess weíre responsible to take away that stuff
from him because we made a decision to support him years ago.

Does Oil play a part in this ?? You bet, is it the only reason
I donít believe so, look at it this way if a starving country like
Russia were to attack the US couldnít one make a case that
theyíre after the Amber Waves of Grain in the Midwest as
a spoil of war ???
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#506777 - 01/17/03 04:37 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Doctor Awesome Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 842
Loc: Citadel of Cool
(Ahem, extreme self-righteousness)

justapilgrim, you say Korvac should mind his own business but, well:

It's obvious you're a big Garth Ennis fan, and over the years, he's used his comics (Preacher, Punisher, Hellblazer) as a platform for rants against the U.S., George W. Bush, and imperialist systems in general.

So I guess my question is, have you been writing him and telling him to keep his druken Irish ass out of our affairs, too, or what?
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#506778 - 01/17/03 11:03 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Noah Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by justapilgrim32:
korvac... my misguided friend, it is becoming more and more apparent to me that you have read one too many OP-ED pieces spewwed out by liberal minded european socialists!!!...


Jesus Christ, who can even read this shit?
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#506779 - 01/18/03 01:04 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Originally posted by Macca:
let's recap:

Bush and his henchmen (or is it the otherway around?) vow to find Osama and destroy the group responsible for 9/11

next thing you know, they are failing miserably at that task and starting to hear the grumblings among voters

How did the voters express their discontent? By voting Democrat last November?

Then . . . Enron and the like come along and Bush and his henchmen are about to get roasted for their connections and profits thereto and thereform

What about the contributions made to the Democrats?

so the next thing you know . . . . WE NEED TO ATTACK IRAQ BECAUSE SADDAM IS BAD

And you don't think Saddam is bad?

nothing had changed -- Saddam was doing the same old crap and there was no explanation for this sudden urgency. In fact, tho Bush tried to connect Saddam to 9/11 and bin Laden but was forced to admit that they had could find no conection

Oh, I see, Saddam must be a swell guy after all. Let's let him stay in power.

the only thing that had changed was that Bush needed to direct the U.S public and press away from Enron, the failure to find Osama bin laden etc. and this is what he chose

He must be a masterful manipulator of events. I don't know why some of you seem to think he's so dumb if he can pull that off.

and it's working beautifully

See?

so don't go on about how Bush is stupid -- he's playing the public like a violin (albeit I'm sure with considerable assistance from his "backers")

I'm embarressed by my countrymen with regards to this issue -- Bush's ploy has been SO obvious all along and no one seems to care whatsoever


How many Hollywood stars have been lining up to have their pictures taken with peace protesters? How many peace protesters have there been? How many news articles about 'someone or other doesn't agree with the U.S.?

(Hint: The answers are: Lots, lots and lots)

so the issue to me isn't whether Saddam needs to be taken out (or why we are seemingly unconcerned with all of the others who are just as bad if not worse)

Name five of them. And do you support military action against those worse than Saddam?

(or what we've done to KEEP such peolpe in power when it serves our own needs) but why no one seems to care that young poeple are being sent of to die,

Old people must serve as front-line soldiers!! That's what we need!

civilans killed, American families spearated, etc. all for a little shell-game PR to benift the current administration

Yeah, the Iraqi people would probably hate to be rid of Saddam.

that Bush is trying this crap is bad enough; our apathy and willingness to buy into this crap is shameful

P.S.

you'll notice I didn't mention Bush needing to divert attention from his adminstration's banning of the Bill of Rights in the name of fighting for the American Way (kinda like burning all your money so no one can steal it -- talk about winning Osama's battles for him) theer's been no need to divert attention from these ongoing and shameful acts becasue no one seems to give a shit about them


:rolleyes:
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#506780 - 01/18/03 01:39 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by Macca:
so the issue to me isn't whether Saddam needs to be taken out (or why we are seemingly unconcerned with all of the others who are just as bad if not worse) (or what we've done to KEEP such peolpe in power when it serves our own needs) but why no one seems to care that young poeple are being sent of to die, civilans killed, American families spearated, etc. all for a little shell-game PR to benift the current administration



But how else do you take Saddam out, other than conventional war tactics? War doesn't really change much; an unfortunate result is that people die.

And, so much is said about the terrible act of sending our young people off to "die," which, I agree, is not a cheery prospect. Yet, I can't help but contrast this with the mindset of those who are actually going; that they are being sent to "serve;" to serve a nation, and protect a way of life. It's ironic, really. We criticize their having to go, and they go willingly to protect our right to do so.
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#506781 - 01/18/03 04:43 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Cheese0012 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 277
Loc: NYC
UPDATE:

CNN/TIME POLL:

Bush Approval rating: 53%

Country is in 'Deep Serious Trouble": 56%

The Economy will get better in the next 12 months: 27%

Bush's handling of the economy: 51%

Bush's Handling of Foreign Policy: 50%

Wow. I have a better approval rating, and I'm an asshole!
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#506782 - 01/18/03 05:14 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Doctor Awesome Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 842
Loc: Citadel of Cool
Quote:
Originally posted by Finar:
And I also agree we know he has the stuff because we gave him
the stuff and so I guess weíre responsible to take away that stuff
from him because we made a decision to support him years ago.


Yeah, Damn straight! 'cause just because we gave him stuff, didn't mean he had to use the stuff for whatever bad things he did with the stuff. But now, oh just you wait MadAss (Sadam spelled backwards), cause now we're gonna use the stuff to stuff you!
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#506783 - 01/19/03 02:37 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Joe T Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 20
For over a decade,Iraq has failed to comply with the Gulf War cease fire agreement by destroying its weapons of mass destruction. What are our options? Do nothing and allow Saddam to obtain nukes or arm terrorists with chemical weapons? It seems to me Bush has taken a very reasonable approach. With UN and congressional support he has given Iraq a final chance to comply FULLY or face military consequences. It is clear Saddam has decided to delay, lie,and not comply. Under such circumstances a liberation of the people of Iraq is almost inevitable.

As far as those people that think calling Bush dumb is some type of substitute for logical debate I suggest you look up the phrase "ad hominem attack.
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#506784 - 01/19/03 02:59 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
I just wonder how many of those in favor of military action against Iraq are going to get out there and do some fighting for us?

It's easy to favor intensive military action when you can just watch the results of your bid while sprawled out on your couch sucking down a soda.


K

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#506785 - 01/19/03 05:08 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Joe T Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 20
Madget,
Are you really trying to say that only those in the military ready to fight should be allowed to have the opinion that war with Iraq is justified?

Does your argument go the other way too with "its easy to bitch and moan against war when you are sitting on a couch drinking a soda"? Maybe if you were living in Iraq under the tyranny of Saddam you might have a different view. You might welcome the overthrow of a madman who has ravaged his country with war, starvation, oppresion, and even the use of chemical warfare.
_________________________
"Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

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#506786 - 01/19/03 08:33 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Finar Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 600
Loc: Boston Ma
Hola Twice Luva's

Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Awesome:


Yeah, Damn straight! 'cause just because we gave him stuff, didn't mean he had to use the stuff for whatever bad things he did with the stuff. But now, oh just you wait MadAss (Sadam spelled backwards), cause now we're gonna use the stuff to stuff you!


Hindsight is "SUCH" a wonderful thing isn't
it Doc.
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#506787 - 01/19/03 10:30 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Jughead Jones Offline
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Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 814
Loc: Riverdale USA
sorry, messed up the post
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#506788 - 01/19/03 10:35 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Jughead Jones Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 814
Loc: Riverdale USA
I agree that Hussein is a threat-- but Bush's odd combativeness and the timing seem odd to me. I'd prefer to let the inspectors do their job before pressing military action.

It seems the current administration had their minds made up to invade before the evidence had come to light.

As was discussed in a previous thread, it was probably an early goal of the administration to remove Hussein from power, and the current militaristic mood of the country made this a good time to press it.
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#506789 - 01/19/03 10:50 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Doctor Awesome Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 842
Loc: Citadel of Cool
Quote:
Originally posted by Finar:
Hindsight is "SUCH" a wonderful thing isn't
it Doc.


I don't really know what you intend to convey by using "SUCH", but I have a couple responses to this:

Yup.

And:

Well, I figure, if you're gonna post like a jackass, might as well go whole hog.
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#506790 - 01/19/03 11:10 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe T:
Madget,
Are you really trying to say that only those in the military ready to fight should be allowed to have the opinion that war with Iraq is justified?


No; but if you're just going to be watching the slaughter from the sidelines, your opinion doesn't hold much weight, (and certainly renders any subsequent "pride" following victory utterly ridiculous.)

I guess I just find it irritating how worked up people get about something they're not going to be participating in, in any capacity. Tens of thousands of lives hang in the balance of these matters we so flagrantly gossip and bray about. If it has little or nothing to do with you, read your comic books and can it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe T:
Does your argument go the other way too with "its easy to bitch and moan against war when you are sitting on a couch drinking a soda"? Maybe if you were living in Iraq under the tyranny of Saddam you might have a different view.


Maybe if I were living in Iraq under the tyranny of Saddam instead of living here in America, wolfing down popcorn while watching the extra features on that new Spider-Man DVD I used my hard-earned money to buy -- my opinion would actually be worth articulating.

And just for clarification, I'm not bitching and moaning against the war.


K

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#506791 - 01/20/03 09:05 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Finar Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 600
Loc: Boston Ma
Hola Bomb Luav's
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Awesome:


I don't really know what you intend to convey by using "SUCH", but I have a couple responses to this:

Yup.

And:

Well, I figure, if you're gonna post like a jackass, might as well go whole hog.


Just following your lead Doc just following your lead
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#506792 - 01/20/03 10:41 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
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Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Madget,

It is, indeed, possible to feel pride in any victory won by your nation's military; you DON'T have to be an active soldier to experience it. And it is not equal to taking the carnage of war lightly, or rejoicing in the dead bodies that result. I have pride in my country, and support my military. If you believe this is only possible by serving in it, that's your right. Of course, it doesn't make you RIGHT.
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#506793 - 01/20/03 05:57 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allen:
It is, indeed, possible to feel pride in any victory won by your nation's military; you DON'T have to be an active soldier to experience it.


Such baseless self-congratulation is obnoxious. If all you do is sit on your ass reading comic books and watching movies and sucking away oil (and other natural resources) as if it/they were limitless and free (as opposed to something lives are shed over and wars fought for) -- then I say swelling up like a balloon every time your television reminds you that you were lucky enough to be born onto a winning team is pathetic.

K

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#506794 - 01/20/03 06:38 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 1677
Loc: Northwestern Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally posted by madget:


Such baseless self-congratulation is obnoxious. If all you do is sit on your ass reading comic books and watching movies and sucking away oil (and other natural resources) as if it/they were limitless and free (as opposed to something lives are shed over and wars fought for) -- then I say swelling up like a balloon every time your television reminds you that you were lucky enough to be born onto a winning team is pathetic.

K


Right. "If." BIG "If." You have not, however, nailed ME with your description, nor many others, in my opinion. Everyone cannot serve in the military. However, this doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't serve doesn't CARE about or appreciate the sacrifices. I say again, because you have failed to prove me wrong; it is possible to feel pride in the victories of our military, even as a civilian.

Kind of makes me wonder if you're a sports fan. If so, you probably get very excited over your favorite team's victories. But, then again, how CAN you? You've never been on the court/field with them to share in those victories. Lest you think I'm making light of our military ventures, my point is that if we can get so jacked over whether our favorite football/basketball/baseball/etc. team does well in a game or a season, why CAN'T we have even greater pride in our military, when they are playing for higher stakes then Jordan, Sanders or Canseco ever dreamed of?
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#506795 - 01/21/03 11:36 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/99
Posts: 5910
Loc: Houston, TX
I tend to agree with Mark on the matter of national pride, though I think it has to be rooted in a cognitive sense that one is a responsible citizen making a contribution, however small, to the functioning of the democratic government. As Mark points out, not everyone can actually be in the military, and even if everyone made the attempt, it would cause the machinery of "peacetime life" to grind to a halt, thus undermining the military's ability to function (unless the military took over everything, that is).

Note that I said "responsible citizen." My definition of this would be idiosyncratic, as would anyone's, but I'd probably deny the feeling of justifiable pride to those citizens who have created more problems than they've solved-- Jeff Skilling, for instance.

I think Jughead is right in presuming that the toppling of Hussein was always a priority for the Bush administration, and possibly not only because of the oil. To some extent I look upon some of these power-games as inevitable in the world of realpolitik, but I'm very dubious as to whether the Bush administration knows to bring anything positive out of their manipulations. Even if they manage to oust Saddam, I'm afraid they're going to bungle this whole thing badly. I feel sure that Bush's handlers are much smarter than he is, and yet sometimes they resort to such bald-faced, incoherent lies that I have to wonder.

Say what you will about Nixon: at least the man told HIS lies persuasively.

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#506796 - 01/21/03 07:24 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allen:

I say again, because you have failed to prove me wrong; it is possible to feel pride in the victories of our military, even as a civilian.


I'm not trying to prove you wrong; I agree. I just think it's pretentious.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allen:
Kind of makes me wonder if you're a sports fan. If so, you probably get very excited over your favorite team's victories. But, then again, how CAN you? You've never been on the court/field with them to share in those victories.


And thatís why Iím not a sports fan.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allen:
Lest you think I'm making light of our military ventures, my point is that if we can get so jacked over whether our favorite football/basketball/baseball/etc. team does well in a game or a season, why CAN'T we have even greater pride in our military, when they are playing for higher stakes then Jordan, Sanders or Canseco ever dreamed of?


You know, I almost brought up the ďsports fanĒ analogy myself, and you hit on why I chose not to get into it: because it makes light of our military ventures. It in fact illustrates aptly why I find such pride so insubstantial Ė because the enthusiasm and testosterone sports fans work up is so silly and baseless. I think even sports fans generally accept that. Itís not so much about the activity occurring, itís about finding an easy catalyst for an adrenaline rush.

You see no problem with applying this to war? And no problem with using the fact that such behavior is generally accepted as a justification for doubling oneís pride in regards to war, because the stakes are higher?

With sports, itís just a game. Itís something to talk about over beers, guy shit. I think itís a bit ridiculous, but fair enough. But letís let such comical stupidities lie and accept them for what they are Ė not use them as a basis for etiquette in much greater matters of life and death.

It's a depressing subject and I don't think I have much more to say on it. Feel free to blow a kazoo for me when Hussein is dead.


K

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#506797 - 01/21/03 07:47 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
madget Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 4870
Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
I think it has to be rooted in a cognitive sense that one is a responsible citizen making a contribution, however small, to the functioning of the democratic government.


Because you happen to live here and you were conditioned to do so. In any case your "contribution" is mandatory, requires nothing particularly intensive of you, and is generously rewarded.

I'm not sorry to be seated in a global lap of luxury -- but I have the good sense not to get a swollen head about it, either.


K

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#506798 - 01/22/03 11:27 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by madget:


Because you happen to live here and you were conditioned to do so. In any case your "contribution" is mandatory, requires nothing particularly intensive of you, and is generously rewarded.

I'm not sorry to be seated in a global lap of luxury -- but I have the good sense not to get a swollen head about it, either.

(Dunno why this came out in quotes but this is me Gene)

The same thing could be said about any citizen of any land, however rich or poor. Everyone is conditioned by environment to some extent.

Let's take this in a more interesting (to me) direction: if you say that the average citizen who does not participate in combat is "pretentious" to feel pride when and if his country's fighting-forces do something good (WWII being an almost-universal example), then by your own logic it's equally pretentious to feel shame when and if your country's fighting forces do something bad (e.g., Vietnam).

And if you say it's not, then why not?


K

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#506799 - 01/22/03 09:19 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
madget Offline
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Ridiculous to feel personal shame. Hey, I felt shame when I watched the new Star Wars movies, but I didn't blame myself personally for how terrible they were.

It's a matter of tact and balance. Naturally you're going to feel good when you perceive good things as having happened. I don't fault anyone that. But to extrapolate that sensation into nationalistic pride and childishly pretending it has something to do with you (when it doesn't) is a cheap psychological move which betrays how desperately eager people are to give themselves credit for anything they can arguably link themselves to in any capacity. (Note that they are far, far less willing to make such huge leaps of empathy when it comes to assigning blame and taking responsibility for perceived injustices; and those who do are quickly heckled with accusations of "Anti-Americanism," etc.)

When a war occurs, the factors motivating and built into it are extremely complicated -- way over my head, for sure -- and the lives shed due to it no small number. It's not the sort of thing I feel comfortable simplistically waving a flag and thumping my chest over. Even if a war is arguably, all things considered, "for the best" given whatever the existing situation, it's not something I'm going to use as a catalyst for self-congratulation, being a simple bystander who happens to be -- through no effort or genuine choice of my own -- on the winning team (and conditioned, like it or not, with some variation of their common values.)


K

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#506800 - 01/23/03 12:45 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
deadhead Offline
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Maybe we should just gather around and pray for a decent democrat candidate for 2004.

If Dubya would have been the president during the cuban missile crisis instead of JFK, nuclear winter would've happened after two days.

Oh and I'm a french canadian and I think I'm entitled to an opinion on american politics because it has a direct effect on my life.

If they'd stop acting like they owned the world I might shut up.

I'm going to leave you on these wise words:
War. hou. what is it good for. absolutly nothing,
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#506801 - 01/23/03 09:02 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Brian Jacks Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by deadhead:
If they'd stop acting like they owned the world I might shut up.
Is that all it'd take?
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#506802 - 01/23/03 11:41 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by madget:
Ridiculous to feel personal shame. Hey, I felt shame when I watched the new Star Wars movies, but I didn't blame myself personally for how terrible they were.

It's a matter of tact and balance. Naturally you're going to feel good when you perceive good things as having happened. I don't fault anyone that. But to extrapolate that sensation into nationalistic pride and childishly pretending it has something to do with you (when it doesn't) is a cheap psychological move which betrays how desperately eager people are to give themselves credit for anything they can arguably link themselves to in any capacity. (Note that they are far, far less willing to make such huge leaps of empathy when it comes to assigning blame and taking responsibility for perceived injustices; and those who do are quickly heckled with accusations of "Anti-Americanism," etc.)

When a war occurs, the factors motivating and built into it are extremely complicated -- way over my head, for sure -- and the lives shed due to it no small number. It's not the sort of thing I feel comfortable simplistically waving a flag and thumping my chest over. Even if a war is arguably, all things considered, "for the best" given whatever the existing situation, it's not something I'm going to use as a catalyst for self-congratulation, being a simple bystander who happens to be -- through no effort or genuine choice of my own -- on the winning team (and conditioned, like it or not, with some variation of their common values.)


K


I think I'm as aware as anyone regarding how nationalistic pride can be distorted into simplistic jingoism. But I also believe one can be aware of the faults or vulnerabilities of one's nation and still have a cognitive appreciation for its positive qualities. I agree that the common herd doesn't have DIRECT control over the nation's military policies, but in a democratic society there is room for SOME influence.

Take the earlier-mentioned example of Sean Penn going to Baghdad. On one level, I know that the gesture doesn't accomplish anything practical: it's unlikely Penn saw anything that the Iraqi regime didn't want him to see. But his trip there demonstrated that a private citizen (albeit one with a lot of money) could make a vocal statement against the military program of the Bush admininstration.

And while I agree that most people accept praise more readily than blame, there are quarters in American society where "the self-blame game" becomes almost an exercise in cultural masochism. Only in such a culture could Osama bin Ladin impugn Americans for carrying on "the new Jewish and Christian crusader campaign that is led by the Chief Crusader Bush under the banner of the cross." In a culture where intellectuals have been taught to feel guilty only about their own culture's depradations, while turning a blind eye to those of other cultures, it's easy for a demagogue to get away with the hypocrisy of emphasizing an opponent's imperialistic ambitions ("crusader campaign")while tacitly ignoring those of his own culture.

Bush does much the same thing, in fact, but by appealing to super-patriotism rather than "pity the poor underdog" rhetoric.

And please, don't anybody claim that I've said Bush and Osama are "the same," I've just pointed out a similar end to their very different means.

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#506803 - 01/23/03 01:54 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by deadhead:
If Dubya would have been the president during the cuban missile crisis instead of JFK, nuclear winter would've happened after two days.


Or, Castro might not STILL be in power. See, anyone can assume they have total clarity on the situation. :rolleyes:
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#506804 - 01/23/03 03:38 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
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A possible clarification:

In one sense it's pointless to argue whether one should or should not feel pride or shame at the deeds of one's nation (or any other societal body: one's religion, profession, etc.). Some people feel those feelings, and others don't.

When one person identifies with the deeds of the societal body to which he belongs, what we have is more or less what anthropologists called 'participation mystique.' It's something that can't be proved in any rational manner-- but in a real sense, it can't be disproved by logic, either.

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#506805 - 01/23/03 03:41 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
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And just to go back to the original topic, more or less:

Does anyone here agree with Dubya that (whether it's because we "have the receipt" or not) there's no trusting the Iraqis until they come across with some substantial surrender of arms?

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#506806 - 01/23/03 04:02 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
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I agree with Dubya that there is no trusting Saddam. Ever.

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#506807 - 01/23/03 06:29 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
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I agree Hussein's untrustworthy. At this point, however, with two more nations putting pressure on the U.S. to wait and let inspections "run their course," (I think it was China and Russia, today) I think it really is time to put the brakes on, pull out, and just wait for Saddam to flub-up. Suddenly, you'll see nations demanding action from the U.S., though they'll never agree that Bush was "right" to demand action in the first place. Although he, and those of us who have supported him, will know it.
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#506808 - 01/23/03 06:40 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Korvac Offline
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Wheras that nice guy Kim Jong who undeniably has weapons of mass destruction including nukes as well as the world's fourth largest army, is harmless.

Bush is focussed on Saddam because he's be even easier to beat now than he was a decade ago. North Korea would be a much tougher nut, is right next door to China and oh yeah, has no oil.
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#506809 - 01/23/03 10:28 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
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Right. And when Bush tries to deal with them in the future, he'll get the same runaround from a namby-pamby U.N.; "We must reason! We must inspect! It doesn't matter that they've broken treaties! No consequences!" Until someone's dodging their weaponry.
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#506810 - 01/23/03 11:13 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Eel O'Brian Offline
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#506811 - 01/24/03 08:29 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Brian Jacks Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:
Wheras that nice guy Kim Jong who undeniably has weapons of mass destruction including nukes as well as the world's fourth largest army, is harmless.

Um, no, but North Korea has shown a willingness to legitimately negotiate in the past, whereas Iraq has not. Newsflash: Not all countries are the same. Each one is handled on its own terms. Stop trying to boil foreign policy into such a simplistic "One Size Fits All" approach. It's absolutely absurd to do so.

Bush is focussed on Saddam because he's be even easier to beat now than he was a decade ago. North Korea would be a much tougher nut, is right next door to China and oh yeah, has no oil.

I must have been imagining the flurry of State Department personal, including Richard Armitage, heading to South Korea to talk with the North. Not to mention many of our allies, including Russia, working on the NK situation. Bush may be focused on Iraq, but he clearly isn't ignoring the North. Another newsflash: we can do two things at once. Gasp!

Your absolute single-minded hatred of Bush is blinding.
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#506812 - 01/24/03 10:57 AM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Sock Puppet #9.5 Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:
Bush is focussed on Saddam because he's be even easier to beat now than he was a decade ago. North Korea would be a much tougher nut, is right next door to China and oh yeah, has no oil.
While controlling oil is a great and possible target, I don't really think that's going to be involved in a post-war setup.

But you are right in that some of the politicos do not like sending American troops where there is no clear benefit. Opposition to the Haiti incursion and the Yugoslav incursion (call them what you will) will be instructive for some time to come. Haiti didn't have resources or diddly in the way of real value to the US. Maybe the US went in to secure Haiti so we could start having the baseballs manufactured there again!! (Political climate forced the change of baseball manufacturing to move to Costa Rica) Guess the dream of having Haitian baseballs again went up in smoke, eh?

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#506813 - 01/24/03 01:11 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Finar Offline
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Hola You Luva's

Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:
Wheras that nice guy Kim Jong who undeniably has weapons of mass destruction including nukes as well as the world's fourth largest army, is harmless.

Bush is focussed on Saddam because he's be even easier to beat now than he was a decade ago. North Korea would be a much tougher nut, is right next door to China and oh yeah, has no oil.


North Korea
???? Righhhttttt it has nothing to do with setting
off a chain reaction and turning all of the eastern world Communist ?

Iraq
Righttttttt it has nothing to do with 9-11 or trying to stamp out terrorism it's all about the oil. Righttttttt As I said in threads before if oil is a spoil of War so be it how tough would one be if they couldn't get oil for their homes
& cars ect ect etc because a despot was sitting on the worlds largest supply ?

And if Russia or China was looking to invade us
because we hid terrorists and had weapons of mass destruction and don't believe in our way of life one could have the argument that they were only after our oil reserves & Midwest bread basket....

Yup lets go to war for Exxon not for 9-11 or
getting rid of a despot or slapping terrorists upside the head.
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#506814 - 01/24/03 02:02 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Korvac Offline
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Well gee, I guess you're right with all that evidence of links between Saddam and Al Queda - oh wait, THERE ISN'T ANY! Remember Al Queda? The guys who actually attacked the U.S.? Whose leader is still out there somewhere? A fanatical religion based group who hate Saddam's secular Iraq more than Bush does? Could Iraq be a convenient paper tiger to distract from the abysmal failure to find these bastards? Gee, I wonder...

Saddam has been successfully contained for more than a decade, he's weaker now than he was before Desert Storm. All this pious concern over broken commitments to the UN is sweet and all - but the UN and the Weapons Inspectors are asking for more time to perform the Weapons Inspections that will determine if Saddam is in fact hiding weapons of mass destruction. Remember innocent till proven guilty? Granted, that doesn't even seem to apply to American citizens any more, much less other countries...

The discovery of a case of empty warheads proves that the inspectors are doing their job effectively. LET THEM DO THEIR JOB!

When right wingers - who make a game of insuring that the UN is as ineffective and unutilized as possible - speak movingly of the sacredness of UN comittments - it makes my oatmeal hit the wall.
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#506815 - 01/24/03 02:16 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
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#506816 - 01/24/03 02:44 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
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And this time we really mean it...

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/15016.htm

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#506817 - 01/24/03 03:42 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
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Today's paper carried the observation (don't have a link handy) that one motive for Bush's Push for War Right Now is that the winter is apparently a more salutory time for invading Iraq than the much hotter spring & summer. I don't recall that being much of a factor during the Gulf War but that's what the man said.

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#506818 - 01/24/03 03:44 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Dan Carroll Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by gene phillips:
Today's paper carried the observation (don't have a link handy) that one motive for Bush's Push for War Right Now is that the winter is apparently a more salutory time for invading Iraq than the much hotter spring & summer. I don't recall that being much of a factor during the Gulf War but that's what the man said.


I don't remember it being trumped up as a big deal, but didn't we invade in January last time? It may have been something the military took into consideration for the Gulf War, but just didn't mention to the public.

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#506819 - 01/24/03 03:52 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Korvac Offline
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Of course timing it precisely to allow Bush to coast through the next election with War-time Presidential poll numbers has NOTHING to do with it. On the plus side it didn't work for Daddy, hopefully history will repeat itself.
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#506820 - 01/24/03 03:55 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Chris Galdieri Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:
Of course timing it precisely to allow Bush to coast through the next election with War-time Presidential poll numbers has NOTHING to do with it. On the plus side it didn't work for Daddy, hopefully history will repeat itself.


Doesn't that perhaps suggest that the timing then has nothing to do with the 2004 election?

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#506821 - 01/24/03 04:20 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Korvac Offline
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>>>Doesn't that perhaps suggest that the timing then has nothing to do with the 2004 election?<<<

It has everything to do with it. When Thatcher was about to lose big in Britain in the mid-eighties, she concocted the most shamless artificial war scare imaginable to maintain power. Bush SR lost because his domestic policies were so dramatically bad that they out-weighed the short term boost in his poll numbers that the Gulf War brought him. Remember Bush SR's poll numbers were actually HIGHER than the Shrub's are now at the same point in his first term. Bush SR went on to get spanked by Clinton. This time they are trying to time it a little closer to the election to maintain the wartime poll boost long enough to profit from it.

It is a cynical and despicable attempt to use the potential deaths of thousands of Iraqis and American soldiers for political gain.
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#506822 - 01/24/03 04:26 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
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Quote:
This time they are trying to time it a little closer to the election to maintain the wartime poll boost long enough to profit from it.


But they want to go now and YOU are the one saying they should wait, thereby pushing the war closer to the election. Sorry dude, but this new wrinkle just doesn't add up. You hate Bush so badly that your making shit up as you go along.

It's entertaining though, I'll give you that.

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#506823 - 01/24/03 04:35 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
ChrisW Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allen:
I agree Hussein's untrustworthy. At this point, however, with two more nations putting pressure on the U.S. to wait and let inspections "run their course," (I think it was China and Russia, today) I think it really is time to put the brakes on, pull out, and just wait for Saddam to flub-up.


If I'm talking about the same 2 countries you are, that would be France and Germany.

For one thing, it's really really strange to see those two on the same side [almost as much so as France and Britain pre-1914].

For another, when was the last time either of them won a war against anybody but each other?
:rolleyes:
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#506824 - 01/24/03 04:37 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Dan Carroll Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Hicks:
Sorry dude, but this new wrinkle just doesn't add up.


Yeah it does. If Bush is trying for wartime hero votes, he would want glorious victory shortly before an election. Not grisly news footage of battle.

"Look what I ensured for your grand-children" is better PR than "look where I sent your sons."

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#506825 - 01/24/03 04:52 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Chris Galdieri Offline
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Registered: 01/17/02
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:
It has everything to do with it. When Thatcher was about to lose big in Britain in the mid-eighties, she concocted the most shamless artificial war scare imaginable to maintain power. Bush SR lost because his domestic policies were so dramatically bad that they out-weighed the short term boost in his poll numbers that the Gulf War brought him. Remember Bush SR's poll numbers were actually HIGHER than the Shrub's are now at the same point in his first term. Bush SR went on to get spanked by Clinton. This time they are trying to time it a little closer to the election to maintain the wartime poll boost long enough to profit from it.

It is a cynical and despicable attempt to use the potential deaths of thousands of Iraqis and American soldiers for political gain.


Your memory is faulty. The Gulf War started in mid-January 1991; if we attack Iraq, it's likely to be within the next month. The elder Bush's poll ratings started falling a lot longer than a month before the 1992 election; I doubt he would have stayed at 91% approval through the 1992 election had we only waited until February to strike.

CJG

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#506826 - 01/24/03 04:54 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Chris Galdieri Offline
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Registered: 01/17/02
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW:


If I'm talking about the same 2 countries you are, that would be France and Germany.

For one thing, it's really really strange to see those two on the same side [almost as much so as France and Britain pre-1914].

For another, when was the last time either of them won a war against anybody but each other?
:rolleyes:


Presented more for amusement value than as geopolitical discussion:

[img]http://www.jessicaswell.com/images/axisofweasels.gif[/img]

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#506827 - 01/24/03 04:55 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Bill Hicks Offline
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Well then, I guess the only way he can avoid this particular line of criticism is to get out his time machine and do it last year.

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#506828 - 01/25/03 12:16 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Mark Allen Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW:
If I'm talking about the same 2 countries you are, that would be France and Germany.


Well, I'm not sure of BOTH countries, but I know one was Russia, and that the reporter said they were JOINING France in their position to wait. France has had this opinion for at least several days, now.
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#506829 - 01/25/03 01:18 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
gene phillips Offline
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Looked up some dates:

Iraq invaded Kuwait August '90.

America and other allies took first definite action in January '91.

Last action in March '91.

My personal recollection is that though Bush's approval rating was high after the swift conclusion of the Gulf War, it wasn't enough to offset public discontent over economic woes. When taxes went up Bush was perceived as having lied with the famous "Read my lips; no new taxes" speech and that hurt him far more than the Gulf War helped him. Again, just a personal recollection of how things shook out.

So there's no guarantee that if Dubya prosecuted a swift and decisive war with Iraq right now, that public opinion would see him safely through the next year's election. From this amateur's perspective a war might actually do him more good if it occured closer to the election. But there could be any number of reasons, the "winter window" I mentioned not even being one of the best. Like maybe he's leery of having Congress rescind the power to attack Iraq (not bloody likely, but a possibility) and wants to get it done now, while he has the power. Or maybe he's trying to please his corporate masters so they'll fork over big for the campaign. Quien sabe?

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#506830 - 01/25/03 02:48 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
ChrisW Offline
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Don't forget the value in having Saddam (and other mid-east despots) quake in anticipation. The other mid-east despots are pretty much all telling him to knuckle under by now.

That is, unless they think they can get together and steamroll over Israel again like they've done so many times before. In that case, watch out. wink
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#506831 - 01/25/03 11:25 PM Re: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and I'll bomb you"
Jughead Jones Offline
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I'm hoping all the pressure will get to Hussein and we can avoid war altogether... I'm not too hopeful, though. I think he's more likely to kill himself and try to take his whole country with him.

I'd really like to avoid war if at all possible, though.
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