I agree that Hussein is a threat-- but Bush's odd combativeness and the timing seem odd to me. I'd prefer to let the inspectors do their job before pressing military action.

It seems the current administration had their minds made up to invade before the evidence had come to light.

As was discussed in a previous thread, it was probably an early goal of the administration to remove Hussein from power, and the current militaristic mood of the country made this a good time to press it.

I don't really know what you intend to convey by using "SUCH", but I have a couple responses to this:

Yup.

And:

Well, I figure, if you're gonna post like a jackass, might as well go whole hog.

No; but if you're just going to be watching the slaughter from the sidelines, your opinion doesn't hold much weight, (and certainly renders any subsequent "pride" following victory utterly ridiculous.)

I guess I just find it irritating how worked up people get about something they're not going to be participating in, in any capacity. Tens of thousands of lives hang in the balance of these matters we so flagrantly gossip and bray about. If it has little or nothing to do with you, read your comic books and can it.



Maybe if I were living in Iraq under the tyranny of Saddam instead of living here in America, wolfing down popcorn while watching the extra features on that new Spider-Man DVD I used my hard-earned money to buy -- my opinion would actually be worth articulating.

And just for clarification, I'm not bitching and moaning against the war.


K

Hola Bomb Luav's


Just following your lead Doc just following your lead

Madget,

It is, indeed, possible to feel pride in any victory won by your nation's military; you DON'T have to be an active soldier to experience it. And it is not equal to taking the carnage of war lightly, or rejoicing in the dead bodies that result. I have pride in my country, and support my military. If you believe this is only possible by serving in it, that's your right. Of course, it doesn't make you RIGHT.

Such baseless self-congratulation is obnoxious. If all you do is sit on your ass reading comic books and watching movies and sucking away oil (and other natural resources) as if it/they were limitless and free (as opposed to something lives are shed over and wars fought for) -- then I say swelling up like a balloon every time your television reminds you that you were lucky enough to be born onto a winning team is pathetic.

K

Right. "If." BIG "If." You have not, however, nailed ME with your description, nor many others, in my opinion. Everyone cannot serve in the military. However, this doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't serve doesn't CARE about or appreciate the sacrifices. I say again, because you have failed to prove me wrong; it is possible to feel pride in the victories of our military, even as a civilian.

Kind of makes me wonder if you're a sports fan. If so, you probably get very excited over your favorite team's victories. But, then again, how CAN you? You've never been on the court/field with them to share in those victories. Lest you think I'm making light of our military ventures, my point is that if we can get so jacked over whether our favorite football/basketball/baseball/etc. team does well in a game or a season, why CAN'T we have even greater pride in our military, when they are playing for higher stakes then Jordan, Sanders or Canseco ever dreamed of?

I tend to agree with Mark on the matter of national pride, though I think it has to be rooted in a cognitive sense that one is a responsible citizen making a contribution, however small, to the functioning of the democratic government. As Mark points out, not everyone can actually be in the military, and even if everyone made the attempt, it would cause the machinery of "peacetime life" to grind to a halt, thus undermining the military's ability to function (unless the military took over everything, that is).

Note that I said "responsible citizen." My definition of this would be idiosyncratic, as would anyone's, but I'd probably deny the feeling of justifiable pride to those citizens who have created more problems than they've solved-- Jeff Skilling, for instance.

I think Jughead is right in presuming that the toppling of Hussein was always a priority for the Bush administration, and possibly not only because of the oil. To some extent I look upon some of these power-games as inevitable in the world of realpolitik, but I'm very dubious as to whether the Bush administration knows to bring anything positive out of their manipulations. Even if they manage to oust Saddam, I'm afraid they're going to bungle this whole thing badly. I feel sure that Bush's handlers are much smarter than he is, and yet sometimes they resort to such bald-faced, incoherent lies that I have to wonder.

Say what you will about Nixon: at least the man told HIS lies persuasively.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong; I agree. I just think it's pretentious.



And that’s why I’m not a sports fan.



You know, I almost brought up the “sports fan” analogy myself, and you hit on why I chose not to get into it: because it makes light of our military ventures. It in fact illustrates aptly why I find such pride so insubstantial – because the enthusiasm and testosterone sports fans work up is so silly and baseless. I think even sports fans generally accept that. It’s not so much about the activity occurring, it’s about finding an easy catalyst for an adrenaline rush.

You see no problem with applying this to war? And no problem with using the fact that such behavior is generally accepted as a justification for doubling one’s pride in regards to war, because the stakes are higher?

With sports, it’s just a game. It’s something to talk about over beers, guy shit. I think it’s a bit ridiculous, but fair enough. But let’s let such comical stupidities lie and accept them for what they are – not use them as a basis for etiquette in much greater matters of life and death.

It's a depressing subject and I don't think I have much more to say on it. Feel free to blow a kazoo for me when Hussein is dead.


K

Because you happen to live here and you were conditioned to do so. In any case your "contribution" is mandatory, requires nothing particularly intensive of you, and is generously rewarded.

I'm not sorry to be seated in a global lap of luxury -- but I have the good sense not to get a swollen head about it, either.


K