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#512317 - 05/01/03 12:56 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
There are a few reasons why the Democratic Party doesn't act more liberal than it already does.

First, as mentioned, this is not a liberal nation, it is a conservative one. I doubt more than one-sixth to one-quarter of the U.S. would consider themselves politically liberal, while one-third to one-half would identify with the politically conservative label.

Second, the Democrats are still reeling from their 1994 congressional losses. The loss was largely due to the fact that the public saw Hillary's (and Bill's) health care proposal as a huge case of overreaching big government. What happened that year is that conservative Democrats began defecting to the Republicans in droves and they are still moving that way.

Third, in order to campaign successfully, it takes hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. (Depending on the race; as a general rule a candidate should expect to spend at least one dollar for every voter in their district). It doesn't matter what the Democrats, or Greens, or Libertarians have to say IF NO ONE HEARS THEM SAY IT. The only way to raise the necessary money, at this point, is to go begging from special interest groups, the wealthy, and from big corporations. That the Democrats haven't fought to seriously replace the system is a valid indictment, but not the fact that they work within the system.

Fourth, the Green Party may not have had any "failures", in that it never really expected to win anything, but it hasn't really had any successes either. A decade ago Gephardt was talking about eliminating all tax deductions and radically lowering the rates; he may be a party hack but he has made bold proposals before. It can hardly be proven that the Green Party has achieved anything more than alienating Ralph Nader from the vast majority of Americans left-of-center.

Fifth, the term "liberal" has become outmoded. At present it no longer means tolerant, open-minded, and progressive; it means politically correct, big-spending (without demanding results), and intolerant of traditional values. While obviously not everyone who considers themself liberal fits the latter definition, pretty much everyone who does NOT consider themself liberal feels it is accurate.

The Republican party, as it currently stands, is devoted to two core constituencies: corporate leaders and Dixiecrats. It pretty much expects that old-school conservatives (such as Pat Buchanan or George Voinoivich) should just shut up and be glad that a Democrat isn't running the show. I would argue that anyone who wants to seriously challenge this allegiance of corporations and fundamentalists should work within the two-party system to transform the Democrats into making them socially progressive, fiscally conservative, and above all, good-government minded. This would attract both liberal Republicans and the moderate majority. If all you're willing to do is say, "No, for me it's old-school liberal or nothing" than you can kiss your chances of changing the country goodbye, because there simply aren't enough people who feel the way you do.
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#512318 - 05/01/03 01:02 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Cisco Bunny Offline
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 2280
Loc: New York City
Quote:
Originally posted by TJKILV aka KEN WALTERS:

First, as mentioned, this is not a liberal nation, it is a conservative one. I doubt more than one-sixth to one-quarter of the U.S. would consider themselves politically liberal, while one-third to one-half would identify with the politically conservative label.


This would be interesting, if true. About the same amount of people identify themselves as liberal as they do conservative. It's around 30% each... the majority of Americans are self-described moderates.

Doesn't everyone know this?

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#512319 - 05/01/03 01:16 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Korvac Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Plus it's a standard rhetorical trick to present your own definition of something - in this case Liberalism - and then explain all that's wrong with it based on the definition you just promulgated. I deny the validity of your definition Ted. It's based on Conservative spin doctors talking points rather than any objective reality.

I prefer the term Progressive anyway.

While the Right has succesfully hijacked the term liberal and applied their own ideological definition to it, which again, is a false definition, if you ask people on an issue by issue basis most people are far more Progressive than they realize.

As for good government and sound economic policy - who's creating the huge deficits right now?
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#512320 - 05/01/03 01:23 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
ScooterDoom Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 997
OMG. You guys are still talking about this sh*t?
Get over it! All of you!!

Talk about pathetic....

How about some of you talk about......COMICS?

There's a shocker.

I refuse to debate anything but comics these days because debating this kind of sh*t is pointless.

Take that for what's it worth.
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#512321 - 05/01/03 01:37 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Eel O'Brian Offline
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Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 3080
Loc: North Kackalackee

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#512322 - 05/01/03 01:47 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Son of Thunder Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 478
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario
Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:
Plus it's a standard rhetorical trick to present your own definition of something - in this case Liberalism - and then explain all that's wrong with it based on the definition you just promulgated. I deny the validity of your definition Ted. It's based on Conservative spin doctors talking points rather than any objective reality.

I prefer the term Progressive anyway.


Using the term "progressive" is the same "rhetorical trick" that you just accused the Right of using.

"Progressive" means being in favor of progress. Progress means movement toward a goal. But since there are many goals, to use the words "progress" or "progressive" without an a priori definition of the goal makes the term meaningless. If the goal is a large government with federal programs involved in as many aspects of people's lives as possible, then liberals are progressive. If the goal is a minimal government and maximum individual liberty and responsibility, then conservatives are progressive. If the goal is the ascension of the White race to a position of dominance, then white-supremacists are progressive. If the goal is the molestation of young boys, than NAMBLA is progressive. If the goal is the minimization of intelligent debate and the maximization of inane babble, then Cisco Bunny is progressive.

Using the term "progressive" to describe your political ideas makes anyone who disagrees with you "anti-progress" by definition, and makes you no different than a conservative who describes anyone who protests the war as "anti-American."

To use your own words, then: I deny the validity of your use of the term "progressive," Korvac. It's based on Liberal spin doctors' talking points rather than any objective reality.
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"I recommend that the Statue of Liberty on the East Coast be supplemented by a Statue of Responsibility on the West Coast." -Viktor Frankl

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#512323 - 05/01/03 01:53 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Cisco Bunny Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 2280
Loc: New York City
Quote:
Originally posted by Son of Thunder:

To use your own words, then: I deny the validity of your use of the term "progressive," Korvac. It's based on Liberal spin doctors' talking points rather than any objective reality.


I don't like the term, "Progressive," either.

I also deny the validity of the term conservative. Fascism would be a better definition of the current Republican party. The way they spend money is far from conservative... they are like drunken sailors on shore leave. And considering that Bush has swollen the size and power of the Federal government more than any President in history, I don't think the term "conservative" really applies.

As I said, fascist or Nazi would be a a better label. I think the label applies, considering that Bush supports Sanitorum's idea of arresting all gays and interning them in concentration camps.

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#512324 - 05/01/03 02:55 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Ted Kilvington Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
Okay, I'll concede that my "liberal/conservative" numbers may be off, since its just my guesstimate and not based on a scientific poll. But I stand by my definition of "liberal", in the political sense at least, based on personal experience. As a Democratic activist, I have worked with many self-avowed liberals and those attitudes
Quote:
politically correct, big-spending (without demanding results), and intolerant of traditional values

do seem to be valid.

I do like the term progressive, though; in this country, in political terms, it does mean being open-minded, tolerant, and willing to use government to make life better for all people, not just one party's supporters.
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Ted J. Kilvington, Jr.

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"I still have that comic, only now it's in liquid form!"

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#512325 - 05/01/03 03:01 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Cisco Bunny Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 2280
Loc: New York City
Did you hear that Bush proclaimed today to be "Loyalty Day"?

We must obey our mighty ruler. Bow down before his regime. Do his bidding like a dog.

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#512326 - 05/01/03 05:25 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Korvac Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>>>politically correct, big-spending (without demanding results), and intolerant of traditional values<<<

Examples and definitions please, of 'politically correct', 'big-spending', and in particular I want your definition of 'traditional values'.

Do you mean the values of a particular religious faith? As defined by whom? The phrases 'Traditional values' or 'family values' can, and usually are used to defend anything from bigotry against gays, to bigotry against blacks, to bigotry against women.

I love it when opposition to intolerance is itself painted as intolerant.

And as for big spending, A 'liberal' President got the country out of deficits, a 'conservative' President is bringing them back bigger than ever.
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"Reality has a well known liberal bias."
-Stephen Colbert

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