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#512327 - 05/01/03 08:36 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Korvac-- I don't know how much you and I disagree about what government policies should be, and the degree of corruption in the current system-- I suspect we'd agree more than disagree. My disagreement with you is twofold-- first, tactics for bringing about social change, and second, the perception of where most Americans stand politically.

I don't think the Green Party voters represent the core of the Democratic party. I think that is represented by union members, blacks, and Jewish voters. Clinton and Gore may have alienated all these groups to one degree or another (the NAFTA free trade agreement comes to mind regarding union members) but I don't think the Green Party vote represents them.

The way for the Green Party to become a signifigant political force in this country is to win elections. According to their website, they've won 73 elected positions in the United States ( http://www.greens.org/elections/ ) That is only the tiniest beginning in a long uphill battle, but it's a hell of a lot more productive than sabotaging the campaigns of the more progressive candidates in elections they have no hope of winning.

As for ideological labels, I prefer 'socialist;' but 'progressive' is nice and vague if one is trying to get elected in this country.
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#512328 - 05/01/03 09:24 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Korvac Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Oh I prefer Socialist too, or Social Democrat - but too many people deactivate all their reasoning capability the moment they see the 'S' word so...

Should the Green Party 'Sabotage' Progressive candidates? No, of course not. I question if they are though. Democrats seem to work up a real head of steam about Greens 'stealing' their votes. Of course they aren't the Dems votes unless they earn them and any Dem candidate who could lose enough votes to a Green to lose a seat probably hasn't been earning them.

Are there exceptions? Sure. There are examples where a Liberal democrat could be tipped over the edge by a Green and there have been many examples of the Greens avoiding doing just that.

But over all I don't think it's any party's responsibility to consider the fate of an electoral rival, why should they? And there are plenty of examples of some pretty objectionable so called Dems beaten by Greens who I will shed no tears for.

That's sort of the point the Greens are making; There are too few differences between the Repubs and the Dems anymore, The Dems have tacked too far to the Right. If they work to strike a fairer balance they will nullify the edge THEY gave the Greens in the first place.
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"Reality has a well known liberal bias."
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#512329 - 05/01/03 10:09 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
You're ignoring reality, Korvac. When left-of-center forces set to fighting each other, the right wing always wins. And as a practical manner, when a candidate has to spend more time and money in a given state to prevent the splinter party from tipping the balance, that candidate can't concentrate on the swing states he needs to win the election.

And your civics class rhetoric seems a bit out of touch. Bush didn't 'earn' his victory in the last election. But he's President, nonetheless.
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#512330 - 05/01/03 10:43 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Korvac Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Again Joe, I don't think the Dems would have to worry about the Greens if they hadn't neglected their Left Wing so badly. I think the only way to reverse that trend is to scare them with a strong alternative on the left.

But that said maybe we traditional allies on this board should take a hint from the many examples of Greens and Progressive Dems woking together and agree to disagree on this issue laugh
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"Reality has a well known liberal bias."
-Stephen Colbert

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#512331 - 05/02/03 07:16 AM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Joe Zabel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 2546
Loc: Cleveland Heights, OH 44106
Korvac-- I always try to exhibit good will towards others. But with all due respect, there is a vast ideological gulf between those of us who consider the last presidential election a defeat, and those who consider it a victory.
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#512332 - 05/02/03 09:52 AM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Talon T M Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally posted by Korvac:

And are you rubber and the rest of us glue? Does whatever we say stick to us and bounce of you?


No, of course not...whatever you type bounces off me and sticks to you, silly.

Quote:

I must say Talon, I always enjoy your intellectual, considered approach to the statements of others. It's good to see that you're prepared to actually respond to other's posts rather than just resort to infantile putdowns because you can't actually respond to the points raised.


Thank you...I was beginning to think that no one noticed!

Quote:

The title you picked for this thread was based on a crude and blatant piece of calculated propaganda - it's like someone still citing the Tonkin gulf incident as justification for the Vietnam War.


The title is most accurate, probably why you're still here after eight pages trying unsuccessfully to disprove it.

Quote:

It was a staged photo op, featuring people flown into the country and protected by tanks from being interupted by anybody who actually lived there. This has been demonstrated at length.


"Demonstrated"? Heh. It's been "offered" and summarily rejected. I suppose the thousands of people that have been shown in the last three weeks hugging the soldiers and smiling and stomping Saddam's face with their shoes have all been staged as well. And the moon landing was faked too, hunh!

Quote:

Altered photos that you crowed as evidence of propaganda on the peace side were actually clear evidence of propaganda by pro war forces - an embarrasing little slip that you've never had the guts to address.


Maybe the "embarrassing slip" is confusing me with someone else? smile

Quote:

So what are you gonna do now? Accuse my mother of wearing army boots? Say 'I know you are but what am I?' Call me a big stupid head?


Your mom doesn't exactly wear army boots...but there is a pair under her bed.
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"I am well aware of you. You are surplus to requirements here. Stick to the Comicon zoo. " -- Warren Ellis

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#512333 - 05/02/03 10:35 AM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Sock Puppet #9.5 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 523
Quote:
Originally posted by Talon T M:
Your mom doesn't exactly wear army boots...

You have seen the new statue in Kirkuk, on the old Saddam pedestal, made completely out of army boots? Not a small item.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030429/170/3xhby.html

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#512334 - 05/02/03 10:50 AM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Talon T M Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally posted by Sock Puppet #9.5:

You have seen the new statue in Kirkuk, on the old Saddam pedestal, made completely out of army boots? Not a small item.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030429/170/3xhby.html


Hahahaha! Obviously that's staged! Snork!

And that Iraqi artist can't possibly be a REAL Iraqi!
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"I am well aware of you. You are surplus to requirements here. Stick to the Comicon zoo. " -- Warren Ellis

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#512335 - 05/02/03 11:29 AM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Dan Carroll Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 4588
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally posted by Talon T M:
Hahahaha! Obviously that's staged! Snork!

And that Iraqi artist can't possiblt be a REAL Iraqi!


For Talon's birthday, I think we should all pitch in and get him an actual, life-size straw man that he can just wave around every time there's an argument.

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#512336 - 05/02/03 12:33 PM Re: US Marines and IRAQI Citizens work together...Michael Moore has Egg on His Face
Talon T M Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Carroll:


For Talon's birthday, I think we should all pitch in and get him an actual, life-size straw man that he can just wave around every time there's an argument.


Oooooh! Just what I've always wanted! Gee, it's only fair...everybody else has one!
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TTM
"I am well aware of you. You are surplus to requirements here. Stick to the Comicon zoo. " -- Warren Ellis

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