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#533236 - 01/10/09 01:31 PM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: Joe Lee]
Dumas Offline
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Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 6777
Loc: Melnibone
I wonder how Mark Waid and Alex Ross feel about Bendis basically recycling whole scenes from Kingdom Come, putting Norman Osborne in the Lex Luthor role and then trying to pass them off as a new story.
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#533254 - 01/11/09 01:05 AM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: Dumas]
Erik Larsen Offline
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Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 1795
Loc: Oakland, CA
Originally Posted By: Dumas
I wonder how Mark Waid and Alex Ross feel about Bendis basically recycling whole scenes from Kingdom Come, putting Norman Osborne in the Lex Luthor role and then trying to pass them off as a new story.


Is it really THAT close?
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#533262 - 01/11/09 06:35 AM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: shjonescrk]
Bendrix Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 295
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
Erik

Of course, it's entirely possible that they haven't read the Savage Dragon story but then again not many people did.

It's quite an allegation to accuse Marvel of "thievery". Do you know they read your book? Do you have insider info that would sugges they did?

It's also interesting you used a "image-altering villain" previously so I could say, for argument's sake obviously, you "stole" that idea from Marvel as Chameleon is a Marvel character that you would be well aware of. As for Presidents being impersonated, there was a Hulk story with art by Trimpe and Severin that featured Nixon and his gang being replaced by robots/LMDs of some sort (my memory is a bit hazy on the details) so it's hardly an original idea and then there is Heinlein's Double Star which features an actor playing an elected official on Mars (now that was a good book).

Barack Obama is big news and with him being a Spider-Man fan, it's hardly unlikely that Marvel wouldn't use his election to boost their sales and public profile. So they wrote a pretty unoriginal story to celebrate (if that's the word) Barack's election.

No, I don't think Marvel is the House of Stolen Ideas but more like House of Unoriginal Ideas, but originality is an overated virtue in the arts.


I doubt anybody would have accused Marvel on stealing a idea based on this plot points alone (I think in the first Wild C.A.T.S. run, something similar has been done).
But in combination with the Obama variant cover and the terrorist fist-jab with the main character, it looks fishy.

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#533264 - 01/11/09 09:00 AM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: Bendrix]
shjonescrk Offline
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Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 1338
Loc: Airdrie, Scotland
I don't think Marvel need "inspiration" from anyone to put out a variant cover - it's one of the things they do.

As for the "terrorist" fist jab - well, it's in the public domain and no one writer can claim it as his own, can he?

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#533267 - 01/11/09 10:27 AM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: shjonescrk]
Bendrix Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 295
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
I don't think Marvel need "inspiration" from anyone to put out a variant cover - it's one of the things they do.

As for the "terrorist" fist jab - well, it's in the public domain and no one writer can claim it as his own, can he?


Trying really hard to miss the point, don't you?

It's not about A variant cover, it's about a Obama variant cover, a move someone did before, a move that got enough coverage that there is no way on earth that Marvel didn't know about it.

And it's not about their legal right to do it, it's just not a great move to rip off somebody who did it first.

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#533271 - 01/11/09 12:02 PM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: Bendrix]
shjonescrk Offline
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Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 1338
Loc: Airdrie, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Bendrix
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
I don't think Marvel need "inspiration" from anyone to put out a variant cover - it's one of the things they do.

As for the "terrorist" fist jab - well, it's in the public domain and no one writer can claim it as his own, can he?


Trying really hard to miss the point, don't you?

It's not about A variant cover, it's about a Obama variant cover, a move someone did before, a move that got enough coverage that there is no way on earth that Marvel didn't know about it.

And it's not about their legal right to do it, it's just not a great move to rip off somebody who did it first.


So since Savage Dragon has a variant cover with Obama on it, Marvel can't do the same when he's in a Spider-Man comic. Does Erik Larsen own the copyright on doing that? Is that what you are saying? Because if it is, you're just being silly.

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#533273 - 01/11/09 12:12 PM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: Joe Lee]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
How is the analogy incorrect?

Millar and Hitch's version of the FF is more than just "influenced by" the Lee/Kirby FF.

Savage Dragon is "influenced by" the Lee/Kirby FF.

Millar and Hitch's version of the FF actually IS the Lee/Kirby FF, as done byMillar and Hitch.

Same songs different band. Maybe remixed a little, and a new twist, maybe they are even better musicians, but they are NOT writing new songs.


You need to give up the cover band analogy, Joe, because it doesn't really work. Cover bands just play somebody else's songs and that's not what happens in work-for-hire super-hero comics. Well, it's a lot closer to that today, but that's not what it has been or is supposed to be.

Cover bands don't take 3 minute songs by the original group and turn them into 15 minute epics. They don't take up tempo songs and turn them into ballads and vice versa. They don't come up with new songs in the style of the original group.

Byrne's run on the FF did more than just ape Lee/Kirby. Peter David's run on the Hulk did more than ape what came before. Busiek and Ross's MARVELS did more than just regurgitate previous stories.

Mike

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#533274 - 01/11/09 12:29 PM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: MBunge]
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10002
Loc: us of fuckin' a
The analogy is better if one considers working on an established character as old blues and country musicians who regularly did the same songs, where the songs were not seen as definitively belonging to the songwriter. The "influenced by" type of superhero is more like those old blues and country songs which borrowed the melody from another, adding new lyrics. Or to put it in another light, is Coltrane's "My Favorite Things" less creative or original than 99% of all the "original" compositions coming from current rock bands? Of course not.
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#533275 - 01/11/09 12:44 PM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: shjonescrk]
Bendrix Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 295
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
Originally Posted By: Bendrix
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
I don't think Marvel need "inspiration" from anyone to put out a variant cover - it's one of the things they do.

As for the "terrorist" fist jab - well, it's in the public domain and no one writer can claim it as his own, can he?


Trying really hard to miss the point, don't you?

It's not about A variant cover, it's about a Obama variant cover, a move someone did before, a move that got enough coverage that there is no way on earth that Marvel didn't know about it.

And it's not about their legal right to do it, it's just not a great move to rip off somebody who did it first.


So since Savage Dragon has a variant cover with Obama on it, Marvel can't do the same when he's in a Spider-Man comic. Does Erik Larsen own the copyright on doing that? Is that what you are saying? Because if it is, you're just being silly.


No no no. This is getting ridiculous. This is nowhere near anything that has to do with copyright. Everything Marvel did is legal, as far as i know, and nobody is implying otherwise. At least not me.
It's about morality and being innovation. Is it a classy move to look what another creator did and say: Hey, this could work for us, let rip the idea off. I don't think so.

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#533279 - 01/11/09 02:18 PM Re: The house of stolen ideas [Re: Bendrix]
Bring Back Zot Offline
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Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
Originally Posted By: Bendrix

It's about morality and being innovation. Is it a classy move to look what another creator did and say: Hey, this could work for us, let rip the idea off. I don't think so.


Ripping ideas off is how Marvel Superheroes were founded. Stan Lee openly acknowledges the following:

"Lee’s ultimate breakthrough came not from a blast of inspiration or otherworldly creativity, but of necessity. Faced with dwindling interest in comic books as the 1950s drew to a close, except for the rousing success of DC’s “Justice League,” Lee was directed to create a competitor to stave off his rivals or face the demise of Marvel.

In 1961, Lee created “The Fantastic Four”; a super-powered team to rival the Justice League, with a focus on how real people might react if they woke up one day to find themselves extraordinary."

Of course, Lee and Kirby did BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE, before or after the FF (including Millar/Hitch).


Edited by Bring Back Zot (01/11/09 02:19 PM)

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